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Short Description: Founder vs. Promulgator [ edit ]

@Ullierlich and FyzixFighter: It is incorrect for the {{short description}} tag to contain "prophet and founder of Islam".

Argument 1: "Muhammad was the founder of Islam, Zoroaster was the founder of Zoroastrianism, Mani was the founder of Manichaeism, Gautama was the founder of Buddhism, Bahaullah was the founder of Baha'i Faith, Joseph Smith was the founder of Mormonism." This is incorrect because:

This is a violation of WP:SYNTH. This is a violation of WP:V. The uncited founders of other religions are irrelvenant. Muslims do not believe that Muhammad founded Islam, because there were many prophets and messengers before him: Prophets and messengers in Islam.

Argument 2: "take this to the talk page - even Britannica ([https://www.britannica.com/biography/Muhammad]) calls him the "founder" of Islam - this is the pattern, as previously noted, for other religions" Britannica is incorrect. Errors have been documented in it.[1][2] I've submitted a correction regarding that. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Islam correctly states that he promulgated Islam (as opposed to "founding it"). Secondly, the exucse of a "pattern" is fallacious and violates policies as previously explained.

WP:NPOV requires that this be approached from a netural point of view. To satisfy this, the "short" description could either be:

"Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims"

"Prophet and Promulgator of Islam"

The first one's not so short, right? But it abides by WP:NPOV. Alternatively, we can use the second and more inclusive term that too abides by WP:NPOV. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:50, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

The talk page archive includes numerous discussions on this and, from my reading of those discussions, it appears that the consensus has been, and continues to be, that "founder" is a neutral secular term. When the majority of secular, academic sources say "founder" then we are not violating WP:V or WP:SYNTH (which is really just a special case of WP:V). The argument about other founders is also relevant. IMO, the pattern followed with Joseph Smith and the Latter Day Saint movement is especially relevant. Latter Day Saints also believe that their theology predates Joseph Smith and was practiced by Adam down to Moses and Jesus and his apostles. However, since secular academic sources call him the "founder" that's what we use on Wikipedia and not the preferred LDS term "restorer". Why should this argument work for Muhammad and Islam but not Joseph Smith and Mormonism? Also, per MOS:HONOR and MOS:ISLAMHON, even if we did go to your proposal, we would not capitalize prophet or promulgator. I don't really see anything new here that hasn't been discussed over and over already on the talk page, as seen in the archives. Without an established new consensus, I don't see any reason to change the status quo. --FyzixFighter (talk) 12:51, 29 October 2018 (UTC) FyzixFighter: Christian denominations as opposed to that of Islam. Additionally, you are comparing denominations (which are founded long after the uprising of a religion) to a religion, Islam. Moreover, your unproven claim of consensus violates the principles outlined in WP:DISCUSSED and does not relate to the short description, which was recently changed (the matter of discussion). The capitalization is not the subject of debate here, though Prophet is capitalized if speaking about a specific individual because it is a proper noun and beginning of the title/short description. MOS:HONOR and MOS:ISLAMHON relate to honorifics, not the use of the term "promulgator". Nonetheless, WP:ISLAMHON reads: "The Prophet or (The) Holy Prophet (including with a lowercase 'h') in place of, or preceding, "Muhammad"; or just Prophet preceding "Muhammad"". We could go with the first or second short description I initially suggested above. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:52, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Comment The problem is that Batreeq misunderstands WP:NPOV. It is explicitly not about always finding a middle way. It explicitly is about representing scholarly consensus. Whether believers of a religion (any religion, nothing to do with Islam) believes something or not, that's actually rather irrelevant for Wikipedia, so the argument that 'Britannica is wrong because Muslims believe otherwise' gets things completely the wrong way around. Academic and scholarly sources are relevant. Religious tenets are not. That is what WP:NPOV says. Jeppiz (talk) 19:39, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Please quote from Wikipedia's policy pages, including to support "It is explicitly not about always finding a middle way." Additionally, there are Muslim scholars. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:52, 30 October 2018 (UTC) Saying "Muhammad was the promulgator, not the founder of Islam, Adam the first man was the first Muslim" is a religious belief. This is not a religious website. That would be as if we were to describe Jesus as the only begotten son of God, Yahweh as the One True God, or Vishnu as Supreme Being. This is a secular resource and Muhammad is obviously the founder of Islam according to secular sources. If that offends some religious sensibilities that is no reason to convert WP from a secular resource to a faith based one.Smeat75 (talk) 01:19, 31 October 2018 (UTC) Sigh. Not again.

I have always held the position that we should say Muhammad introduced Islam to the world. That's a basic statement of fact that nobody would disagree with. But that recommendation has consistently fallen on deaf ears. Otherwise, if scholarly sources use "founder" then that's what we would use also. "Promulgator" means "proclaimer" or "teacher", which doesn't really capture Muhammad's role as the one who introduced Islam to the world. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC) I completely understand where you guys are coming from, but the short description should be modified then. For example, "Founder (secular POV) and Prophet of Islam". Promulgator is an additional option as well. Or: "Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims"

"Prophet and promulgator of Islam" – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 22:56, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

To add my two cents (worth a penny or more perhaps ;), I would mention the use of Presentism (literary and historical analysis) on how the religion and ideology of Islam reinterprets the past. This is typical of all people, not only Muslims or those beholden to an Arabic hierarchy as Islam promotes. To suspect that Abraham, for example, was a 'Muslim' is to paint the past according to what Muhammad was talking about. It is less about being 'wrong' in labeling Abraham as one who 'submits to God' and 'keeps his peace' (loosely what 'Islam' or 'Aslam' would mean). Notice how in Christian vernacular, there is no aim or motive to label Abraham as a 'Christian'. Why? Because it is unnecessary. There is no motive to paint the past in such a manner, since that would be leaning on the fallacy of presentism. Thus, it is proper to define things objectively and without religious zealotry or motive, to identify Muhammad as the author of Islam and promoter of such ideas. -- HafizHanif (talk) 00:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC) Thanks for your input. I've reset the template to how it was before the dispute of the controversial edits. That concept could also be applied to the modern incorrect statement that Muhammad founded the religion. Can you clarify explicitly what you mean and how it relates to the founder vs. promulgator dispute? – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 00:37, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure! According to the definitions of those words, Muhammad both 'founded' Islam (did not exist before he started reciting religious poetry) and also was its promulgator (promoted and spread it). Since wiki is supposed to be an encyclopedia, it is proper to describe subjects / topics from all points of view. Thus, it is correct to clarify that Muhammad believed himself to be a prophet of God (founder), but not everyone was, nor is, convinced. This is why choice words are very important. The issue is, and consideration needs to be adhered to, the religious who have been weened with religious vernacular. To talk about this man without the honorifics, or without the title of 'prophet' is like blasphemy to their minds. It is a great leap of faith / logic for such to describe things beyond those constricting bounds, unfortunately. What seems 'controversial' is a matter of objectivity, and some religious minds sadly have difficulty looking past their strictures. This goes for all subjects / topics religiously followed, even science, atheism, or wrastling ;) -- HafizHanif (talk) 01:24, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘ Founder, obviously. To suppose that he is not the founder is an explicitly religious belief, and Wikipedia no more should do that than it should claim that Thor causes the lightning. I can't help but notice a preponderance of editors in favour of "founder". Pinkbeast (talk) 09:28, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Pinkbeast that there seems to be a rather clear c consensus, and have re-established that version. It is perfectly factual and neutral. As numerous editors have said, we are not concerned with religious POVs here (and that of course applies to any religion). For example, we do not state that Jesus was the Son of God at Jesus either, nor should we. Jeppiz (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2018 (UTC) "As numerous editors have said, we are not concerned with religious POVs here (and that of course applies to any religion)..." That's incorrect. If that was true, then Wikipedia would not describe any religious info, which is undoubtedly not the case. The Jesus article refers to him as a "son of God" and this is easily provable with a Find Command. If you insist, we shall put "Founder (secular POV) and Prophet of Islam" or "Founder of Islam according to non-Muslims, promulgator and final prophet of Islam according to Muslims".

Also, can somebody tell me why he is not considered the promulgator of Islam?[1] – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 20:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

And this article refers to Muhammad as the "final prophet of Islam". By the way, the short description of the Jesus article is "central figure of Christianity". I'd hesitate to call Muhammad the central figure of Islam in the same manner, but you'll notice that the objective of the short description is to be very short. —C.Fred (talk) 20:59, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

The Jesus article, in its introductory paragraph, reads "Most Christians believe he is the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament." Key word is "believe". The rest of the article cites where that belief is noted. Thus where it reads "Son of God", notice it is citing the sources. The article is not arguing nor claiming such, otherwise it would be POV and other such wiki trespasses. This is the same where in the introduction to Muhammad, it mentions "belief" and then the rest of the article uses terms from the centric Islamic perspective (example: prophet of Islam, etc.). -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi there!! As I was going through the above discussion, i felt like adding just one point to it. Ask the "scholarly sources" who call Prophet Muhammad the founder of Islam whether the name of Prophet Muhammad's father was Abdullah (Meaning: servant of Allah) or not. Prophet's Father - Abdullah (Abdallah ibn Abd al-Muttalib). I know the "Scholarly sources" won't take into consideration religious references so I ask them to put forth the references (that they believe to be true) to disprove my point. MME Baig (talk) 07:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

That's an interesting question, but not in the scope of this talkpage (Allah#Usage may be relevant, other deities may have been involved, etc). You could try Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed with Sång...but to respond and hopefully clarify: Realize ancient pre-Islamic Arabia had very little written accounts. Most things written in the pre-Islamic era are extant items from either a Christian-Arab or Jewish societal source, and some poetry Arab-centric. Arabs (whether pagan, polytheistic, or some other religious stance) were by and large illiterates. There was no such thing as a written history or method of record keeping. Their only 'history' were narratives in oral traditions, usually in poetic sing-song rhyme - similar to Muhammad's poetry (the Quran), going back a few generations in promoting their particular tribal and familial bonds. This manner of recalling stories of the past or praising particular tribes and their exploits was very common to ancient Arabic culture, even the claims of notable family and tribal names (mentioning names like Abraham as a claim to some nobility or high position over others). The oral traditions that were written down several centuries after the fact / fictions / legends of any given Arabic / Muslim narrative is what scholars have to work with, but nothing more ancient than Muhammad's claims or those expounded by his adherents is available or verifiable. Thus why it is difficult to derive anything according to historical methodology from either pre-Islamic writings or other sources of that time regarding Muhammad's claims, short of what is found in biblical or other pre-Islamic sources speaking on Arabia, the Levant, etc.. -- HafizHanif (talk) 08:29, 14 November 2018 (UTC) I feel like we are going off topic here, but Rahmanism and this video are a few proofs. Back on topic: C.Fred, ultimately, short is relative. I suggested those options because they are both inclusive. Alternately, "promulgator" is still an accurate option (and my last question remains unanswered). – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 20:25, 14 November 2018 (UTC) From the documentation for {{short description}}: "Keep it short and simple. Avoid specialist terminology. As much detail as is necessary should be provided, no more - avoid listing examples. It will be displayed on mobile view along with other possible hits, and must be intelligible to the lay reader."[emphasis added] That last bit is key: a reader without specialized knowledge should be able to make sense of what the article is about. While "founder" may not be the most precise, it is the clearest to the blank-slate reader who is trying to figure out who the article is about. "Promulgator" is an uncommon word and doesn't provide clarity. "Prophet" isn't specific enough, "last prophet" doesn't make clear his special standing. If we could find a better word than "promulgator", I'd be okay with a "prophet and..." construction. —C.Fred (talk) 20:59, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘ Batreeq, the problem is that you still seem to believe we should call facts "secular POV" and that we should have some kind of balance to include what Muslims believe. We should not. This is not a Muslim encyclopaedia any more than it's an encyclopaedia of any religion. Of course we should note that Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet, but that's a religious view and not something which we will, should or even could (according to the rules) place on equal footing with facts. Most Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet. Most non-Muslims believe either that he was mad, sick, or an imposter. I mean no insult by this, the same goes for all religious figures. Most Christians believe Jesus was the God, most Jews believe he was mad, sick, or an imposter. Again, same goes for every religious founder. If a man claims to talk to God, he is either right or wrong. Those who believe he is right will follow him, those who believe he is wrong will believe he is either mad or lying. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, Ad-Darazi, Joseph Smith... the list is long. Saying that Muhammad was the founder of Islam is factual. Saying Muslims consider him the last prophet is like saying Christians, or Jews, or Buddhists, or Hindus consider him an imposter. It's a religious POV. I take it we both agree not to put it in the lead that many consider him an imposter. If we can agree on excluding that religious POV, it should be equally obvious to exclude other POV. If you are to edit Wikipedia, you need to understand that any religious POV is rather irrelevant. Articles about religions do tell about those religions, their believers and beliefs, but do not adhere to them. Jeppiz (talk) 21:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Jeppiz (and all others reading along), lots of people have a difficult time understanding neutral 'objectivity' when all they know are religious claims taught to them as 'facts' (one-sided narratives). It is a blinding prism for some raised to understand the world through legends long believed as truth. When historical research begins to extrapolate, or reveal, what is closer to fact, or critical thinking is encouraged, the mind not accustomed to critical thinking has difficulty adjusting. When unequivocal facts are read, the mind resounds and can shake violently. And when a teaching exists that anyone 'not believing' the religious claims are enemies, such resistance to religious claims is understood as them being haters of God or of one's beloved man-leader (the so-called 'prophet' in question), that their minds usually revert to defense mode, instead of think mode. But love wins out every time. -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:53, 14 November 2018 (UTC) Jeppiz: Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 21:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC) And why should that be labelled as a "secular POV"? It is a fact. That suffices. Pinkbeast (talk) 00:15, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Muhammad as a prophet - non as founder per se - see concepts of fitra and other Islamic scholarship upon nature of Islam as having a wider scope than circa second millennialist academic tensions. https://www.khaleejtimes.com/editorials-columns/muhammad-is-allah-s-last-messenger-not-the-founder-of-islam Text mdnp (talk) 01:11, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Muhammad is the founder of Islam because Islam was not known before him. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 01:19, 19 November 2018 (UTC) The news article that Text mdnp linked supports my claim of not including incorrect secular information or specifying secular info. Doctorx0079: Prophets and messengers in Islam. We are not arguing the validity of Islam here. Pinkbeast: Evasion (ethics). My previous question remains unanswered. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 00:10, 21 November 2018 (UTC) I AM NOT ARGUING THE VALIDITY OF ISLAM. SHOW ME WHERE I SAID ISLAM IS VALID OR INVALID. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC) For what it's worth I agree with the consensus that "founder" is a neutral secular term. Batreeq has so far utterly failed to convince me otherwise. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 00:16, 21 November 2018 (UTC) The news article that Text mdnp linked is no use whatsoever. "Anyone who reads a biography of Muhammad’s (pbuh) life can see that his prophethood was crystal clear from the time when he was in his mother’s womb" - this is not a neutral source (and the whole thing is like that). I'm not sure what question I'm supposedly evading, unless it's "Could you please link to the policy that states religious POV's are excluded?", in which case I think it is rather up to you to find the policy that says that - leaving aside the figleaf of "religious POVs" - a vast morass of mutually contradictory sources making unverifiable claims are suddenly to be taken as valid. Pinkbeast (talk) 01:35, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Hopefully not too far off topic (my apologies when I do digress), but I noticed recently this interesting detail: BBC News cites or labels Muhammad as "Prophet Muhammad" in their news articles. See this one about suicide martyrs (oxymoron) and this one about the first woman judge defending polyamorous relationship (which is a psychologically interesting read). I wonder: has the UK, or British whomever, become an Islamic State? Or do they label him as such to placate people's sensitivities (as we keep reading in this talk page)? Or is it something else? Anyone? Bueller? -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Same thing (labeling Muhammad as a "Prophet") with this MSN news article talking about schoolbooks indoctrinating hate and indifference inspired from Muhammad's poetry and the legends about him (Hadith, et al). I suspect there is a fear factor behind the use of the title, "prophet" capitalized, likely to subdue the typical emotional lashing out when anything less than expected is written. Notice the current talk page sections in here... It's a shame that even these news cites lost their journalistic integrity and objectivity. -- HafizHanif (talk) 18:28, 21 November 2018 (UTC) Besides being vague rubbish with the usual paranoia about Muslims - Saint Paul is only Saint Paul because Christianity says he's a saint, but you don't seem to be shedding any tears over the way that secular sources commonly refer to him as "Saint Paul" - this seems to have very limited relevance to the topic. Pinkbeast (talk) 19:39, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Rubbish and vague, I must confess. However, poignant and precise it surely is. Let us stay on topic (alongside our digressions). What I mention is important regarding public acknowledgment derived from mainstream opinion. My opinion: it is irresponsible and fear-based. Thus we notify public opinion submitting to religious claims, and it is shameful... since it is vacant of Truth. -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2018 (UTC) Pinkbeast: WP:BIASEDSOURCES allows these types of sources. Now, the Burden of proof (philosophy) lies on you. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 03:14, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Let's look at the same 'news' sources I previously cited regarding Paul. Here is one article mentioning Paul. Notice how Paul is described by the news writer, and described when quoting what others say about Paul. Is this the case when Muhammad is referenced or written about by a news writer in BBC? Is this paranoia or the fact? Another from the BBC, notice the mention of Jesus and how Jesus is mentioned as 'founder' and without other labels / titles / honorifics. No one is up in arms about it. That article about Jesus should refute the contentions about Muhammad and honorary motifs, and showcase how Muhammad is the founder of that ideology. But a 'prophet' and titled in mainstream news sources? Again, very unprofessional regarding journalism or objectivity. But some of us know exactly why this duplicity is allowed. The violence that often accompanies disturbed religious emotions goes without saying... so a poetic dreamer may be honored, praised, and worshipped as a 'prophet'. -- HafizHanif (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC) Let's not. Please keep this junk off this talk page. It has nothing to do with improving the article. Pinkbeast (talk) 20:43, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

The point is proven. Lack of subjectivity from news sources does 'not' justify wiki's lack of objectivity. The example of the Jesus link shows him as 'founder' and doesn't give honorific titles. To do any different with another historical character would be revealing bias (and ignorance, among other things). So, two sections in this talk page have been answered. -- HafizHanif (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2018 (UTC) HafizHanif: WP:OR: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought. All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves." WP:SYNTH: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources..." – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:56, 23 November 2018 (UTC) According to published sources, Muhammad is the founder of Islam. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 02:07, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Batreeq: HafizHanif (talk) 19:27, 24 November 2018 (UTC) HafizHanif: Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 22:55, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

": Batreeq: HafizHanif (talk) 23:08, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not exist to honor anybody. WP:NOT -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:09, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘ @HafizHanif and Doctorx0079: Nope. The published source clearly refutes that he is the founder, and a general and unspecific link to WP:NOT does not change that. As previously mentioned, "promulgator" or identifying the POV's is more accurate and unbiased. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 23:15, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

The point with WP:NOT is the honoring business. WP is not in the business of honoring, don't know what you were talking about with that. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 23:18, 25 November 2018 (UTC) Please quote the passage you have in mind. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:21, 25 November 2018 (UTC) User HafizHanif said "According to published sources, Muhammad is NOT to be honored in fact-based information sources (which Wiki is supposed to be), but mentioned by name alone." Not sure what he's talking about there. Wikipedia doesn't exist to honor anybody. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 02:16, 26 November 2018 (UTC) Okay, but I didn't say that Wikipedia must honor anybody. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 18:29, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps I use too many words, because it seems they are being misinterpreted. To mention that Muslims see Muhammad as "prophet" is fine (mention once), but from then on it's simply 'Muhammad', not 'prophet Muhammad' or anything else. This is a scholar-based source, not a place to promote religious narrow-mindedness or even religious arguments. Doing otherwise would be 'honoring' a person, and this is not the aim nor the point of this open and neutral source (wiki). Batreeq: HafizHanif (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) HafizHanif: WP:BIASEDSOURCES). Original thought is not. Muhammad is an Islamic Prophet and the short description reflects that. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 00:05, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Batreeq: Muhammad and that is the end of it. When mainstream news sources, as I pointed out earlier, label Muhammad as 'prophet' without identifying that label as one sided, they are doing a poor job at journalism. I wonder if they are fearful of losing fingertips or heads... what do you think? (rhetorical question). Cheers. HafizHanif (talk) 21:11, 29 November 2018 (UTC)--

┌─────────────────────────┘ Your notions of poor journalism are irrelevant. The policies including WP:OR still stand. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 01:27, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

This discussion reveals your inability to look past your religious subjectivity. Your argument that I'm attributing OR is precisely what your trying to color the article with (by calling the man's claim, or that of his followers, as factual). The issue has been long resolved . -- HafizHanif (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC) Facts[1] do not care about your feelings. I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. The discussion is not over. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:46, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

We don't cite opinion pieces as reliable sources. An opinion piece by a Muslim author who is basically restating a well-known religious viewpoint isn't a valid counterpoint to the fact that Muhammad founded Islam in every sense of how the word "founded" is used in a secular context in English. We already know Muslims object to the word; that's irrelevant, just as it's irrelevant that Sunnis object to the images in this article. A religious viewpoint isn't a basis for editorial decisions in how to present a topic in a secular encyclopedia. Removal of the descriptor "founder" need to be grounded in secular and scholarly reasoning, not religious belief. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC) Anachronist: WP:NEWSBLOG, these are considered reliable. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 21:35, 1 December 2018 (UTC) And per WP:NEWSBLOG, they're to be used with care. Further, they're also to be identified as opinions. Batreeq: C.Fred (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2018 (UTC) And such sources are definitely not considered reliable for your attempted edits in the article which have been reverted multiple times. There is no usefulness in a blog that states a common religious viewpoint. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:05, 1 December 2018 (UTC) C.Fred: Anachronist: Ullierlich did. I simply reverted them because they were incorrect, and you wish to include them. Essentially, I'm not one wanting to make edits, but rather restore the {{short description}} template to how it previously was. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:26, 4 December 2018 (UTC) Batreeq: C.Fred (talk) 23:32, 4 December 2018 (UTC) C.Fred: Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:35, 4 December 2018 (UTC) Batreeq: C.Fred (talk) 23:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC) C.Fred: WP:NPOV. I have yet to find a policy that states what you quoted. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 23:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Alternative proposal: Central figure [ edit ]

Not to cause someone to site otherstuffexists, but look at Buddha and Jesus. Neither are described as the founder in the first sentence. How about calling Muhammad the central figure of Islam (like Jesus' lead), or saying that his teachings are the central tenants of Islam (per Buddha, more or less), or something similar? I don't think saying "Founder" is an issue, but evidently some people can't let it rest, so, this is my suggestion, feel free to ignore it. ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 18:57, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad are all central figures, yes. But Muhammad is something more than that. Neither Buddha nor Jesus claimed to offer a divinely revealed religion complete with laws and rules. Buddha offered a philosophical approach on which Buddhism was later founded, while Jesus was considered a rabbi who offered an alternative form of Judaism. Neither would be considered the "founder"; in fact the religions founded on their teachings did not exist during their lifetimes. Neither of them had the objective to establish a new religion. A better analogy would be Joseph Smith, who, like Muhammad, returned from a journey with revelations — in both cases, a large mass of written revelations created by a supernatural agent. And yes, Joseph Smith is indeed described as the founder of Mormonism. Both Islam and Mormonism came into being during the lifetimes of their founders, as a direct result of their own active and purposeful efforts in establishing a new religion. ~Anachronist (talk) 08:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC) Sounds good to me. Muhammad is the founder of Islam in the Joseph Smith sense. -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 20:08, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

That analogy in comparing Joseph Smith's efforts and legacy is a decent one. Joseph Smith quoted the Bible and then introduced himself and a supposed 'revelation' and developed yet another religion, albeit one including major overtones of Christianity. Muhammad could be summarized as having done the same thing, only with Jewish and Christian overtones including Arabi-centric overtones of legend and folklore. No such thing as beheadings and cutting off of fingertips existed as a religious prescription in Judaism nor Christianity, so that is one of many details 'founded' and introduced by Muhammad. Since Muhammad is argued from an Islamic point of view as the 'perfect man' theologically, then he is surely the central figure of Islam and its model. -- HafizHanif (talk) 20:25, 27 November 2018 (UTC) HafizHanif: WP:OR and WP:SYNTH). – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 00:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

My friend Batreeq, perhaps not all who respond to this (or other Islamic articles) are adequately qualified, or at least partially learned, in the fundamentals of the religion of Muhammad. Smiting of necks from primary source, at Muhammad (47) 4, and necks and fingertips at al-Anfal (8) 12.

Secondary source (Hadith) citing the primary source (Muhammad's poetry - the Quran), I'll quote in-full (worth reading):

(so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.) strike them on their foreheads to tear them apart and over the necks to cut them off, and cut off their limbs, hands and feet. It was said that, (over the necks) refers to striking the forehead, or the neck, according to Ad-dahhak and `atiyyah al-`awfi. In support of the latter, Allah commanded the believers, (so, when you meet (in fight jihad in Allah's cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).) 47:4 Ar-rabi` bin Anas said, "in the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire. (source: Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir).

For tertiary sources (modern scholars who look at the primaries, secondaries, and historical accounts including centric and more objective, we find an entire wiki article already existing: Beheading in Islam. See sources regarding how far back beheadings go... and realize they are still done under the guise of following the prescription found in Muhammad's poetry. Should I also find the points of fingertips for you as well?

So if it is ignorance on your part, that is fine. Some who edit wikipedia do so to share facts, not embellish legends or make inconsiderate apologies for such barbarity argued as peace, justice, and so forth. If it is you who is the apologist, then you stand corrected by centuries of Islamic practice. Go in peace. -- HafizHanif (talk) 21:06, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘ @HafizHanif: Shame on you for decontextualizing the Quran and promoting your extremist beliefs. You know well what the verse means, even without scholarly explanations.

"Often quoted but rarely contextualized, the verse refers to a miraculous event in which the enemies of Islam were confronted by the angels. It does not command Muslims to terrorize other communities through bombings and acts of random violence.

Ibn Kathir explains the meaning of this verse, saying: ‎ثَبِّتُوا أَنْتُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ وَقَوُّوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ عَلَى أَعْدَائِهِمْ عَنْ أَمْرِي لَكُمْ بِذَلِكَ سَأُلْقِي الرُّعْبَ وَالْمَذَلَّةَ وَالصَّغَارَ عَلَى مَنْ خَالَفَ أَمْرِي وَكَذَّبَ رَسُولِي You – the angels – support the Muslims and strengthen their resolve against their enemies, thus implementing My command. I – Allah – will cast terror, disgrace, and humiliation upon whoever defies My command and rejects My messenger. Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir 8:12 In the aftermath of the battle, there were signs that the angels had supported the Muslims in their defensive struggle against the persecuting army.

Ar-Rabi’ ibn Anas said: ‎كَانَ النَّاسُ يَوْمَ بَدْرٍ يَعْرِفُونَ قَتْلَى الْمَلَائِكَةِ مِمَّنْ قَتَلُوا هُمْ بِضَرْبٍ فَوْقَ الْأَعْنَاقِ وَعَلَى الْبَنَانِ مِثْلَ سِمَةِ النَّارِ قَدِ أُحْرِقَ بِهِ In the aftermath of the battle of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire.

Therefore, the verse refers to divine intervention by angels in support of the Muslims who were defending their city from aggression. The terror thrown into the unbelievers’ hearts was upon their realization that Allah was supporting the Muslims with angels and miracles. It does not mean Muslims have been commanded to spread terror and violence in society as a means of political change. Muslims are only permitted to take up arms against those who have declared war against them, never as a means to force people into Islam.

Ibn Taymiyyah writes: ‎الكفار إنما يقاتلون بشرط الحراب كما ذهب اليه جمهور العلماء وكما دل عليه الكتاب والسنة The unbelievers are only fought on the condition that they declare war according to the majority of scholars, as evident in the book and prophetic tradition. Source: An-Nubuwwat 1/140

Ibn Al-Qayyim writes: ‎وَلَمْ يُكْرِهْ أَحَدًا قَطُّ عَلَى الدِّينِ وَإِنَّمَا كَانَ يُقَاتِلُ مَنْ يُحَارِبُهُ وَيُقَاتِلُهُ وَأَمَّا مَنْ سَالَمَهُ وَهَادَنَهُ فَلَمْ يُقَاتِلْهُ وَلَمْ يُكْرِهْهُ عَلَى الدُّخُولِ فِي دِينِهِ The Prophet never forced the religion upon anyone, but rather he only fought those who waged war against him and fought him first. As for those who made peace with him or conducted a truce, then he never fought them and he never compelled them to enter his religion.

Source: Hidayat Al-Hayara 237

In conclusion, terrorism, political violence, and spreading religion by force is forbidden in Islam. Killing women, children, and non-combatants as well as initiating wars of aggression are major sins in Islam according to classical and modern authorities. Historically, the Prophet only fought battles in self-defense and to repel aggression against the Muslim community. (Source)" The tafsir of 47:4 can be found here and here.

According to The Huffington Post, "Terrorism and Islamophobia are two sides of the same coin of hate; they feed off each other. The distorted views of the 'other' held by both terrorists and Islamophobes, along with their extremist ideologies and convictions, are linked in a vicious cycle that is affecting world peace and security." (Source).

I suggest you remain on topic in regards to the article and avoid Islamophobia and trolling. – Batreeq (Talk) (Contribs) 01:26, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Your responses exemplify an inability to look past a religious pandering to ignorance. Now arguing divine intervention of angels for the evidence of beheadings and fingers nipping is the very point of this discussion! You lost. Religious ideology has clouded your objectivity. To call me extreme while apologizing for historical atrocities is, in itself, extreme. To then share contradictory Hadith that, according to you, justifies beheading and finger snipping atrocities is ridiculous and desperate. To call my effort in identifying the facts as 'phobic' only reveals your ignorance of historical facts written by Muslims. No objectivity. No understanding outside of religious dogma. My friend, this discussion is over. -- HafizHanif (talk) 02:22, 30 November 2018 (UTC) All, I would recommend that we all remain civil and assume good faith with each other. Religion is obviously a charged topic, so we have to be careful we don't lose sight of the fact that we are here to improve WP. Everyone is fine, but let's not let this get out of hand because we are all experienced and constructive editors - we can't let this spiral out into a religious and geopolitical debate, because this is not the place for that. Sorry if I sound preachy, I just want us to keep our goals in sight. Best ‡ Єl Cid of ᐺalencia ᐐT₳LKᐬ 13:45, 30 November 2018 (UTC) HafizHanif: personal attack and off-topic information (that was not even a command to Muslims, whether or not you believe in angels). I advise you to say off topic and refrain from posting information that does not directly relate to the discussion of the edits at hand. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 02:08, 1 December 2018 (UTC) Please stay on topic yourself. The lengthy reply above has nothing to do with the question at hand; it is just as useless as HafizHanif's ramblings. Pinkbeast (talk) 22:04, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Not sure if my aim at objectivity is 'useless ramblings', but perhaps to those unsure about what I'm talking about and my lack of prose may be misinterpreted as such. But please don't start something that will only reveal dissonance on your part Mr. Pink. I've pointed out several examples of religious blindness when it comes to the aim at objectivity and neutral summaries of the facts (what wiki is about). -- HafizHanif (talk) 19:53, 3 December 2018 (UTC) Your useless ramblings are useless ramblings, yes. Stick to the point; should this page say "founder"? Ideally, remove your comments above which do not pertain to that question. Pinkbeast (talk) 02:19, 4 December 2018 (UTC) Perhaps myopic minds fail to understand. It's understandable. -- HafizHanif (talk) 22:03, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Who says that he was a 'founder', 'Prophet' etc.? FyzixFighter No, this edit is not WP:Neutral because it gives the impression that the Muslim POV (that he was the promulgator of a religion that previously promulgated by the likes of Abraham) is 'wrong', and this is what has been complained about above by users like Batreeq, whereas this edit of mine avoids making the Muslim POV look 'wrong', and I avoided changing 'Founder' to 'Promulgator' or 'Central figure', but instead made it clear that this is the view held by the majority of people (and most of the people today would be non-Muslims). To give the impression that one view held by a significant number of WP:Reliable sources, even if less than 50%, is 'wrong', without specifying a valid reason, like who said what about what Islam is or what is it not, such as what Muslims mean by previous Prophets being 'Muslims' (literally 'Submitters' (to God's Will)), or what non-Muslims define Islam as, is not neutrality, but WP:bias, in the same way that merely calling him a 'Prophet' here without saying who considers him to be so (i.e. Muslims and Baha'is), and who doesn't consider him to be so, is bias, not neutrality. Leo1pard (talk) 05:17, 15 February 2019 (UTC); edited 05:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Another proposal: the prophet of Islam [ edit ]

Another secular alternative is "the prophet of Islam." This is a common description in academic sources, markedly different than the Muslim view: "a prophet of God". It is also factual and assumes nothing about what happened in early Islam. Wiqi(55) 09:30, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree with what Wiqi55 said. I didn't want to discuss this issue here because there have been some offensive and disturbing off-topic comments by the user Hafiz and others. I would suggest this discussion be only about the topic and without insults and uncivil behaviours. Thanks --SharabSalam (talk) 09:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Use of "the prophet of Islam" would give the impression that Muhammad is the only man regarded as a Prophet in Islam, which is incorrect as he is seen by most people who identify themselves as Muslims, with the exception of Ahmadis, as the last Prophet in Islam, with predecessors including Jesus and Moses, so "main prophet of Islam" would be more accurate, since he is given more importance by Muslims than others whom they see as Prophets. Leo1pard (talk) 17:00, 16 February 2019 (UTC) I agree with Leo1pard I wasn't aware of the meaning of "the". It gives the impression that he was the only prophet of Islam and many people disagree with that. As you said "a prophet in Islam" would be more neutral and balanced than the prophet of Islam. People who think that Mohammed wasn't a prophet would not complain because it says: (a prophet IN Islam) Wiqi55 was trying to solve this problem. It would be great if Wiqi55 gave their opinion on this.--SharabSalam (talk) 03:00, 17 February 2019 (UTC) The article already says he was a prophet, in the second sentence. In my previous comment about Joseph Smith, Muhammad fits the definition of "founder". I never really liked this term myself, although I agree it's better than any of the alternatives proposed. I have advocated in the past that the lead should say something along the lines of "Muhammad is known for introducing Islam to the world" (nobody on the planet could argue with that, although it needs wordsmithing), but that suggestion has always fallen on deaf ears. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:22, 17 February 2019 (UTC) For the second sentence it is irrelevent to the disscusion which is about the short discription so please stay on the topic. The founder is not a NPOV and contradicts all of what Muslims believe.[1][2]. Muslims believe that ALL prophets were calling for Islam. I think "a prophet in Islam" would be more respectful and NPOV to wikipedian readers in general except if you think wikipedia should represent anti-Islamic believes only?.--SharabSalam (talk) 05:00, 17 February 2019 (UTC) I'm sorry but you seem to confuse things. The sentence is perfectly NPOV already. Your comment makes it seem like you think a sentence cannot be NPOV if it contradicts Muslim believes. That's not the case, neither for Islam nor for any other religion. We have lots of articles contradicting every religion, building on scholarship. It has nothing to do with being anti-Islam; quite the opposite, it's about applying the same criteria to all articles. That Muhammad founded Islam is the academic consensus. No religion calling itself Islam, having Muhammad as a prophet, and following the Qur'an existed before Muhammad. The only reason we don't call Jesus the founder if Christianity is because many scholars think that it was Paul who founded Christianity (something going against Christian belief) so for Christianity as well we follow what academic sources say and not what believers believe. Please be aware that NPOV is not about finding a compromise between scholarship and faith, it is about representing scholarship as well as we can. Jeppiz (talk) 10:33, 17 February 2019 (UTC) Replying to what Wiqi said, I disagree that "the prophet of Islam" is a secular alternative, as there is no such thing as a secular prophet. For one to regard someone as a prophet by definition requires belief in whatever divine being with which they are supposedly in contact. Also, as far as I can see, our sources that call him "the prophet of Islam" also say that he was the founder, because whether or not he was a prophet does not speak as to whether or not he was the founder. We already cover that Muslims believe he was a prophet, and that they believe he is the last prophet. Finally, with that version, it would read "Muhammad was the prophet of Islam. According to Islamic Doctrine, he was a prophet..." which is clunky and repetitive. UnequivocalAmbivalence (talk) 13:27, 17 February 2019 (UTC) Actually, the cited source is inline with my proposal: it uses "the prophet of Islam" in the first sentence and founder only later. They seem to recognize that "the prophet of Islam" is the best short description. I'm also puzzled by your sensitivity against the use of the word "prophet". Are you suggesting sources that use "the prophet of Islam" (Brill, Oxford University Press, et al) are not secular? As for the Muslim creed wording, for variety and accuracy, it can be changed to "According to Islamic Doctrine, he was a prophet of God" (or a messenger of God). Wiqi(55) 15:19, 17 February 2019 (UTC) Thanks User:شرعب السلام for reminding me that this discussion isn't about the lead sentence, but about the short description field in the infobox. Right now it says "prophet and founder of Islam" which appears to cover all points of view, so I don't see the problem. Also, forgive my ignorance, but when I look at the article I don't see the short description appear anywhere, I only see it when I try to edit the infobox. Where is this showing up? ~Anachronist (talk) 19:30, 17 February 2019 (UTC) For example, when the article is suggested at the very bottom of the mobile site. – Batreeq ( Talk ) Contribs) 05:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Another edit request [ edit ]

{{Hi there, I have a request. can you please replace the image of #Signature:Seal of Muhammad, as it is the logo of ISIS which do not represent the true spirit of Muhammadism from some groups of Muslims. It seems like an open advertisement of ISIS which is not appropriate. In the article of Muhammad, we should add something that is unique to him and do not brand any particular group. Anyhow, thats a request. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SADIA RAHAT (talk • contribs) 22:47, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

The Seal of Muhammad predates Daesh by centuries. I see no reason to surrender the seal to Daesh, and I'm a Christian. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

{{Oh dear!! Its not about being Christian or Muslim. Its about adding a right content and spreading goodness in the world. I was here, reading and to me it felt like branding of ISIS as it is trying to establish a link between Muhammad and ISIS. However, in today's world, now everyone who have an active eye over current affairs knows that these ISIS and alike groups are created to defame Islam. They does not represent the true spirit of Muhammad's teachings. They are part of the campaigns to destroy the image of Muslims. So, I thought this platform should be independent of this weird world politics. But, if you think its about religion, I am sorry. Its not like this page allows open contributions. So, fine by me. Have a wonderful day!!.}}

You don't seem to understand that the image being used predates ISIS by centuries. Did you even read the Seal of Muhammad article? Do you understand that the image is the signature of Muhammad himself? The fact that the group chooses to use that image isn't relevant to this article. Furthermore, that seal is used in a template shared by many articles, not just this one, so an edit request to remove it from this article without affecting all the others isn't technically possible. ~Anachronist (talk) 01:27, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

birth year [ edit ]

if 570CE is correct, is it Rabi' al-awwal 12th, this date corresponds to June 14th 570.

108.31.73.33 (talk) 05:48, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Is that your own original research or do you have a scholarly source? ~Anachronist (talk) 07:40, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Another editor and I are currently doing some work on Aisha, which led me to notice that the dates for her marriage in the infobox on this page appear to be incorrect or at least speculative, as there are differing scholarly opinions about the dates for Aisha's birth and the date of marriage. I haven't seen anything to contradict that it took place after the hijara, and the source I'm looking at now says after the Battle of Badr (624CE). Dating her marriage 619 would mean she was only 5 or 6, which does not seem to be supported anywhere. I don't know about his other wives. Anyway this will need to be revisited once the Aisha article is sorted out. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 04:34, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Similarly to the above stated The Jewish Encyclopedia is not un unbaised source. I feel that this wiki has a strong anti muslim bias and that all referenced to "perverted" should be eliminated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.82.39.233 (talk) 01:28, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

The Jewish Encyclopedia is cited only in the context of criticism, which is appropriate. ~Anachronist (talk) 05:14, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Suggesting slight language improvement [ edit ]

(It amuses me that I'm allowed to edit the entry for God, but not for Muhammad.) When I randomly peruse Wikipedia I try to fix language that seems awkward to me. The phrase "Muhammad gained few early followers, and experienced hostility..." feels a bit clumsy to this native English speaker, and I suggest the following alternative: The followers of Muhammad were initially few in number, and experienced hostility... To be fair, the meaning is clear as-is, this is strictly a matter of style. Tim Bray (talk) 07:36, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

TimBray: Anachronist (talk) 04:12, 17 February 2019 (UTC) I just made the minor change you suggested. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:26, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Problem with "Allah" [ edit ]

In the "Pre-Islamic Arabia" section, the text says "Three goddesses were associated with Allah as his daughters..." - which is a little bit jarring as it is the first appearance of the name "Allah" in the article. I'm not sufficiently educated on the history here to have a useful opinion on how to address the problem, but it does feel like a problem.

Also a minor problem: The section opens "The Arabian Peninsula was largely arid and volcanic" - it still is, although "volcanic" suggests volcanic activity, which I don't think is currently true. I think that "was" should be "is" or "was and still is". And maybe "volcanic" could be replaced by just "rocky"? Tim Bray (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

TimBray: WP:ALLAH we use the name "God" on the English Wikipedia, so I have changed this. As for being volcanic, see List of volcanoes in Saudi Arabia. Volcanic doesn't necessarily mean volcanic activity, but also volcanic geology and soil. I've made a minor change there too. ~Anachronist (talk) 04:34, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

"Khatam an-Nabiyyin" is taken from the Bible Book of Daniel 9:24 [ edit ]

The word Khatam = to seal, is taken from Aramaic/Hebrew. This expression Khatam an-Nabiyyin in Qur'an 33:40 was copied from the Bible, Book of Daniel 9:24: the seal the Prophet & the prophecy/ vision. The word Katham seal means, to fulfill? to confirm the prophecy and the prophet Ronmar24 (talk) 08:22, 23 February 2019 (UTC)