The result of the move request was: MOVED to Hillary Clinton. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:45, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

To what extent - regarding US citizens - have they voted (been able to vote)/will they vote (be able to vote) for "Hillary Rodham Clinton" or "Hillary Clinton"?





The following is transcluded from Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton/April 2015 move request. The full request can be found there and comments should only be made there. Thanks!



Request move from:

This move would presumably extend to the names of categories and Wikiprojects relating to Hillary. Note that certain titles regarding her are already at the shorter titles (Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2008, Hillary Clinton presidential campaign, 2016, List of Hillary Clinton 2008 presidential campaign endorsements), and will not be affected by this move.

This move is proposed for the following reasons:

Calidum T|C 14:43, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Please be civil, and respect the viewpoints of others. Please do not engage in battlegrounding. Please assume good faith and do not engage in personal attacks.

Users either supporting or opposing the move should indicate at least the most pertinent reasons for doing so. This will help the closing admin(s) determine consensus.

Comments that are placed in the wrong section may be moved to the correct section by administrators or other participants. Excessively lengthy or off-topic discussions may be collapsed.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Survey [ edit ]

Support [ edit ]

Oppose [ edit ]

Neutral [ edit ]

I'm parking it here just while I work out whether there's really any reasoned argument against to be made. Pandeist (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Moved to support

Moved to support Undecided at the moment, will need some thought Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:19, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Moved to support

Discussion [ edit ]

Other search results [ edit ]

Google News Archive: -- "Hillary Rodham Clinton" -- 47,600 archived results

Google News Archive: -- "Hillary Clinton" -Rodham - 34,500 archived results

Newspapers.com: -- "Hillary Rodham Clinton" -- 16,992 results

Yahoo News: "Hillary Rodham Clinton" -- 9,414 recent results

Yahoo News: "Hillary Clinton" -Rodham - 13,018 recent results

This shows that the true vast majority of reliable sources address HRC as HRC, throughout her time as a public figure. She was a known public figure before she even added the name Clinton to Hillary Rodham, there is no good reason to change the article title, per WP:TITLECHANGES. Dave Dial (talk) 16:16, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

section 1 [ edit ]

Alanscottwalker: 331dot (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Another example of the systemic bias of Wikipedia. Editor user:Anythingyouwant adds reasoning here for a move, citing Article Title policy Another new part of that policy page: "neither a given name nor a family name is usually omitted or abbreviated for conciseness", so omission of middle names and other additional names for conciseness is usually fine. Hillary's family name is Rodham, it's NOT her 'middle name'. So the editor cites policy that would prevent a move from HRC to HC, and doesn't even realize it. Unfortunately, there will be many such !votes like this. Totally disregarding policy as if it doesn't exist, because the editor has no clue. Dave Dial (talk) 16:39, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, since she took the surname Clinton upon marriage, Clinton is her family name. Rodham is her maiden name (or birth name if you will). I'm saying this to avoid confusion, because if people start talking about family name ambiguously, that doesn't help but rather confuses the issue, so it's best to use crystal clear terms like maiden name (or birth surname), versus married name (or married surname). Softlavender (talk) 16:50, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Really? So her family name is gone like smoke because she got married? Is that the case for any male person? What's crystal clear is that Rodham is her family name. Period. HRC did NOT take the Clinton name when she got married. She went by Hillary Rodham for years, until 1983. So it would help if editors actually knew the difference between policy, reality and made up stuff. Dave Dial (talk) 16:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Maiden name is defined as "a woman's family name before she got married and started using her husband's family name".[12][13] "Rodham" was the subject's "family name" before she got married, not now. That is all I can, will, or want to say about it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Chasewc91: Calidum T|C 16:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

That's blatantly and patently false. In fact, the MR should be altered because the reasoning at the intro is dishonest, at best. Dave Dial (talk) 17:06, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Some sources use a mix of both "Hillary Rodham Clinton" and "Hillary Clinton"; I have searched extensively and have yet to find a scholarly source on this subject that addresses the subject at length but does not refer to her in some places as "Hillary Clinton". The trend for high-level peer-reviewed academic publications in the past year (the important period for this move request, since it is addresses changes since the last one) is to use only "Hillary Clinton". This can be confirmed by a simple search of SSRS, JSTOR, and Google Scholar publications. bd2412 T 17:25, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Yes, and the reason why this move request is so blatantly dishonest is because the same people (you, Calidum and NickCT) were also the main editors from the last move request. And you KNOW that the ngrams and google results were flawed. You KNOW that the results showing "Hillary Clinton" -Rodham had many an instance with the name "Hillary Rodham Clinton". Yet the results leading off this MR are hidden with caveats like "since 2014" and such. You also know there has been no name change, and article title policy advises against moving contentious moves for stable articles. You also know since the last MR that policy has changed to give weight to the BLP subjects preference of their name. Which should make even more difficult to move HRC to HC. And despite all that, have worded the MR in a totally biased manner. Disregarding policy and reality. Dave Dial (talk) 17:35, 26 April 2015 (UTC) The ngrams and Google results are not flawed; sources tend to use "Hillary Clinton", even if a minority also use "Rodham" at some point. Certainly the Google Trends indications and results from other search engines are not flawed. The editors who participate in this discussion are perfectly capable of seeing these things for themselves. bd2412 T 17:46, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

The Twitter argument is poor since Twitter usernames must be <16 characters and display names <21 (source). @HillaryRodhamClinton = 20 characters. "Hillary Rodham Clinton" = 22 characters. It would be technically impossible for Clinton to use her full name in either her username or display name. – Chase (talk / contribs) 16:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Facebook has no such restriction, and yet her Facebook account has now been created under "Hillary Clinton". That is a significant change not explained by any editing restriction. bd2412 T 17:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

(talk / contribs) 16:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the Twitter argument is not poor. There are two parameters on Twitter: Your name, and your handle/username (the @ thing). The name has no such length restrictions, yet she uses only Hillary Clinton for that as well [14]. Nor does she use the initial R in her username (@HillaryRClinton), as she might well do if it was important to her. Softlavender (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Wrong. If you look at the link I've provided, display name is only allotted 20 characters. –Chase (talk / contribs) 20:34, 26 April 2015 (UTC) I stand corrected. Softlavender (talk) 23:41, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Omnedon: You wrote "Hit counts are also invalid and misleading in a case like this, since (to give just one reason) it is quite common for articles to mention her as HRC once at the beginning, and then use a shorter version throughout the article." Google results numbers are numbers of articles, not numbers of individual iterations of the phrase, so these hit counts are not misleading. Softlavender (talk) 18:17, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Omnedon: You said, To quote another editor, “You may wish to mention that to reliable sources since they don't seem to have gotten the message . Actually, these are primary sources, written by people possibly connected to Clinton herself, so they show the maiden name at first, much like many other sources about a prominent person world. The vast majority of sources assume that we know what they're talking about when they say "Hillary Clinton". Epic Genius (talk) 19:07, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Andy Dingley: You said, In the case of Chelsea Manning, WP was vehement in taking their choice of name over all argument from officialdom. Secondly, any issue of commonname is easily dealt with by redirects, just as we do it for so many other BLPs. WP:COMMONNAME was the basis for the Chelsea Manning article being moved. If anything, the Chelsea Manning case supports the move request here, as it was moved to the current common name rather than keeping it at the past common name. WP:COMMONNAME is very clear that the common name should be used as the article title. Just because other articles may violate this policy is not a good argument for this article to do so. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@Tarc:, do you consider it User:GregKaye, User:Scjessey, and User:Wester are "disrupting Wikipedia to make a point" when each of them proposed at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton that the page be moved, within the past few weeks? None of them have been involved in any previous discussion of the issue, but each of them independently arrived at the page and felt that the title was wrong. This happens frequently, and will continue to happen to matter what any previous move participants do, until the page ends up getting moved. bd2412 T 21:18, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree that accusations, personal attacks, or rancor, or even the semblance of them, have no place in this move discussion (no matter how frustrating the back-and-forth over the months/years has been); and failure to present points clearly and civilly, rooted only in policy, will only impede one's goal, especially when it comes time for the closing admins to take stock. Softlavender (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:BD2412 - Note that although I indicated my personal preference was that "Hillary Clinton" made more sense to me when I offered up a useful source on the issue, I did not specifically advocate for a page move. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC) @User:Scjessey, I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment. I would, however, stress the larger point, which is that new editors come to Wikipedia all the time (or old editors who have not looked at this article before), and express the feeling that "Hillary Clinton" does make more sense. Some of these editors, unaware that the issue has been discussed before, propose to move the page. They are not trying to disrupt Wikipedia (just as you were not trying to disrupt Wikipedia by indicating your preference). Each time this move is proposed by a new editor, it gets much more support than it did the last time. At the same time, coverage in the rest of the world continues to trend towards "Hillary Clinton". Inevitably the page will end up being moved, and the question is whether it gets moved this year or on someone else's new move proposal next year, after doing this whole discussion all over again. bd2412 T 16:17, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@Chasewc91: Interesting that you link is whitehouse.gov/1600/first-ladies/hillaryclinton and that the article in that link refers to her as Hillary Clinton was elected United States Senator from New York on November 7, 2000. and Hillary Clinton currently serves as U.S. Secretary of State. Did you notice it now omits the Rodham part in recent years, because that has changed? EoRdE6 (Come Talk to Me!) 21:46, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

section 2 [ edit ]

(Discussion moved from under my Support !vote. -- В²C ☎ 01:49, 28 April 2015 (UTC)) There are arguments and many editors on both sides here. To characterize this as "obstinate opposition to title change" dismisses those that feel that the current title is the right title and who have said precisely why. And yogurt has nothing to do with this. Omnedon (talk) 17:16, 27 April 2015 (UTC) This list was compiled by proposal opposer Wasted Time R: Hillary Rodham – 34 years including when first married Hillary Rodham Clinton – 29 years including all the major offices/positions she's held Hillary Clinton – 4 years while campaigning. In other words, in contexts where using the name most commonly recognized really matters in the real world, while campaigning, the subject herself uses Hillary Clinton. Of course I'm dismissive of the opposing arguments (not the people making them!). They are indeed reflections of the reasons people just don't like HC as a title, but their arguments are not based in policy. They're mostly rationalizations, like the absurd attempts to downplay the dominating role that WP:COMMONNAME plays in deciding our titles, by highlighting a few cherry-picked odd exceptions, without justifying why an exception is warranted by policy in this case. --В²C ☎ 19:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC) But arguments for keeping the article where it is are indeed policy-based. You just don't like them. And you call them rationalizations, and absurd, and talk about cherry-picking. That's not the situation. Reasonable people can disagree; but you can't seem to accept that. Omnedon (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2015 (UTC) There are policy-based arguments (good) and non-policy-based arguments (bad) on both sides, and we should all strive for the good. Perhaps we can agree on that much? ― Mandruss ☎ 20:06, 27 April 2015 (UTC) I would not agree that arguments not based directly on Wikipedia policy are, by definition, bad arguments. However, having said that, I would agree that policy-based arguments are best. I guess the point is this: some editors tend to characterize their opposition as having nothing but bad arguments, and especially when there are so many editors on both sides, that's just not fair. I believe that HRC is the correct title for reasons given by many editors. Others believe HC is the best title. If we cannot reach consensus on this, then the article can't be moved, according to policy. Omnedon (talk) 23:06, 27 April 2015 (UTC) No, policy says nothing about participants having to agree on what is the "best" title. The point of a proposal is to determine which title meets title policy best. But I agree almost all opposers are discussing this as if the former is the goal (as compared to the support argument presented fully in the nom). That's my point, and why I think it's appropriate to dismiss the opposing arguments. --В²C ☎ 00:05, 28 April 2015 (UTC) You are dismissing arguments that have their basis in policy by blindly saying that they do not. Some of the reasons given in the nomination are questionable on their face. The point is that there are arguments on both sides. Since you will not acknowledge that the opposing arguments have any value, that pretty much puts paid to any discussion that can be had with you. But that is no surprise; it's your modus operandi. Omnedon (talk) 02:22, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Omnedon, making it personal reveals the flaccidity of your position. It is true that those who do not like HC rationalize basis for their opinion by desperately clinging to a few points on the oppose side that vaguely refer to policy, but these are overwhelmed by the direct support of the support side by policy, primarily as outlined in the nom (the few arguably dubious claims there aside). It's not even a contest. --204.115.183.4 (talk) 15:57, 28 April 2015 (UTC) So, policy supports the HC name? Good, then. Epic Genius (talk) 02:11, 29 April 2015 (UTC) The 63 years that Hillary was known as "Rodham" are over, are they not? Epic Genius (talk) 02:00, 28 April 2015 (UTC)



section 3 [ edit ]

Moved from under Beetstra's Oppose !vote. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:05, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

I find this (mentioned below) particularly convincing as a reason to keep using Hillary Rodham Clinton, especially if that is the name voters will see on the election form. --Dirk Beetstra T C 07:21, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Ngrams and stuff [ edit ]

@DD2K: You cited this Ngram Viewer to support your Oppose. The help for Ngram Viewer says this about the use of the hyphen: "subtracts the expression on the right from the expression on the left, giving you a way to measure one ngram relative to another." Thus, you appear your red line appears to be plotting the difference between the "Hillary Clinton" ngram and the "Rodham" ngram. The "Rodham" ngram would include any occurrence of that name, whether or not it refers to Hillary. This would explain why that plot is negative, as there are bound to be more occurrences of "Rodham" than "Hillary Clinton". As I read it, those results are not valid for this purpose, and should be replaced with these. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Edited after reply. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:41, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe that's correct, and I've had this debate before. The results showing just Hillary Clinton include results where HRC is described as HRC. In fact, in some of the results the books were named HRC. One needs to subtract Rodham(from "Hillary Clinton") and compare it to "Hillary Rodham Clinton". Otherwise the results are flawed. Dave Dial (talk) 02:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC) When you had the debate before, did it result in a consensus that you were correct? If not, how is that significant? I can only repeat that "Rodham" would have to include all Rodhams, not only Hillary. And, I fail to see how a simple comparison of HC to HRC could be flawed. But I'll leave it there for other commenters and the closer. ― Mandruss ☎ 03:31, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Your Google Ngram result gave me pause, until I checked the advanced usage. What you are doing is subtracting the number of hits for just "Rodham" from the number of hits for "Hillary Clinton". See here for a view showing all three terms, and here for one showing HC vs. HRC vs. the wrong (HC-R). If you go up to 2008, the prevalence of HC becomes a lot more pronounced. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:33, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Stephan Schulz: this. I put the years as 1983-2000, both because that is when HRC became a public figure AND when the article was created. Those are the criteria for article creation. The results until 2008 do show a trend towards HC, from HRC, but that is only a criteria if there was a name change. There has not been and Hillary Rodham Clinton has stated she prefers to be addressed as such. So, according to Wikipedia policy, the trend does not matter. As HRC became a public figure and the article was created as HRC, and there was no name change. Also, I see you and some others have cited that in Europe, or the UK, or Germany, HC is more prevalent than HRC. While that may be true, we give deference to article titles by the country of origin. We have a redirect for Hillary Clinton to the HRC article, so the most that would happen is that our readers would be educated. That is hardly a bad thing for an encyclopedia. Dave Dial (talk) 14:58, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Google Ngram searches for the exact phrases given. It does not use "-" as a subset operators (i.e. "show all occurrences of 'Hillary Clinton' without those that also have 'Rodham'). Results for "Hillary Clinton" do not contain "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to begin with. Google Ngram also does not use pages or books that contain a phrase as a "hit", but basically treats the whole corpus as one long document and counts how often the phrase occurs in the full corpus. Take a look at your query expanded by adding plain "Hillary Clinton". I have to say that I don't find your argument for a 2000 cut -off compelling in the least. We are not retroactively judging the creators of the article back in the stone age, but we try to decide what the best name is now. Also see WP:BURO and WP:IAR. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:21, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘Well, you would definitely have to ignore policy to move the page from HRC to HC. So I'll give you that. The other stuff is just your opinion and goes against Wikipedia policy. The reason we have Wikipedia policies like the country specific results for titles and self published names is to prevent moves like this. That and the fact that many reliable sources definitely use(just today we have the AP using her correct name 3 times in 1 article, and the SF Chron also) "Hillary Rodham Clinton(especially books and scholars), there is no policy based reason to move this page. So it's not as if sources have stopped using her correct name. This move is just ridiculous and not policy based at all. Stripping HRC from her family name for no reason seems very sexist. Dave Dial (talk) 16:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

If we strip "HRC", what does that leave? The Politician Formerly Know As Hillary? Or just Illay Odham Inton? We are not talking about removing part of her name, we are deciding under which primary search key we file her article. And even in the US, HC consistently leads HRC. If we trust Google Ngram, by 2008 its by a factor of 2.5 to 1, and in 2000 (your preferred date) its 1.6 to 1. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Let me also add that country specific names are very common on Wikipedia. We have an article about Diana, Princess of Wales, not Princess Di or Diana Spencer. We have an article on Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, not Kate Middleton. We have an article on Wilhelm_II, German Emperor, not Frederick Albert. We also have an article named Kaiser, not Emperor. The reasons vary, but educating our readers is an important one. Dave Dial (talk) 16:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

I'd submit that we can educate readers about Hillary's maiden name without including it in the title of the article. I mean, assuming they read at least the first sentence. ― Mandruss ☎ 16:40, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Yes, that's true. But what policy based reason is there for moving the article from HRC to HC? There just isn't one. It has been acknowledged by the main move supporters that HRC came to prominence using the name "Hillary Rodham Clinton", and the majority of reliable sources used that term while addressing her when this article was created. Since both HRC and HC both get you to the same article, why move it? What if HRC is elected President and is addressed as President Hillary Rodham Clinton(per her request to the press and historians), and this page is moved now. Shall we move back in 2017? 2018? Why move it at all. A Wikipedia based policy is not there for such a move. It's just absurd. I know a lot of good editors automatically state that the article should be named HC(whether it's because they don't know better or just are not familiar with US and Wikipedia policies), but there just is not any good policy based reason to move this article. Reliable sources still refer to her as HRC, most especially in the more advanced sources. Dave Dial (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Let me also add, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but IF Hillary Rodham Clinton does win the Democratic nomination(and there doesn't seem to be any serious challengers), AND wins the Presidency(she IS ahead in most all the polls against all serious Republican challengers), what name do you think the press is going to refer to her as? President Clinton? We already had one of those. Most press will happily take her suggestion to refer to her as Hillary Rodham Clinton, just because it's easier to refer to her as President Rodham Clinton than any other name. So this mover request is not only premature, it has a high degree of having to be reversed in the future. Dave Dial (talk) 17:19, 27 April 2015 (UTC) The press called George W. Bush "President Bush" despite there already having been a President Bush. If they need to distinguish the two, they will call her "Hillary Clinton" (or "President Hillary Clinton") as they do now. bd2412 T 17:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC) That's not entirely true, and you know it. They used it sometimes, but the press distinguished by calling GHWB "the first President Bush", or Bush 41. They also, when writing, stated President George HW Bush, or President George W Bush. That's one reason why our articles for those two Presidents are named George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush. Dave Dial (talk) 17:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC) The Bushes have the same first and last names; the middle initials are the point of distinction. Thank you, however, for pointing out that the press can also refer to the Clintons as "the first President Clinton" and "the second President Clinton" or Clinton 42 and Clinton 45, as the case may be. bd2412 T 17:41, 27 April 2015 (UTC) True, that will be used while speaking and for brevity, but you must know that when writing journalists and authors(especially historians and scholars) will use the preferred name of President Hillary Rodham Clinton. You have to know that. Dave Dial (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC) I think writers resting on formality will use "Hillary Rodham Clinton" to the same extent that they use "William Jefferson Clinton" and "Elizabeth Hanford Dole". bd2412 T 18:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Dave, I really don't see how you can reasonably say that my !vote, and those of many others, are not policy-based arguments for HC. They are policy-based arguments that differ from your policy-based arguments. Could we possibly stop making hyperbolic statements like that? ― Mandruss ☎ 17:30, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Sorry Mandruss, I don't mean to diminish supporters of a move. I just cannot see a policy based reason to MOVE the article. Our policies say that stable article titles should not be moved without a good reason, and since the subject is still referred to as Hillary Rodham Clinton in much of the press(especially more advanced and scholarly outlets), there doesn't seem to be a good, policy based reason. Most especially when you take into consideration the two new polices we have since the last move request.Subject preference(which lists BLP considerations) and Concise which states: "neither a given name nor a family name is usually omitted or abbreviated for conciseness". It's hard to argue that HRC's family name isn't Rodham. Dave Dial (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2015 (UTC) We seem to have entered the dreaded black hole of circular argument. If our policies say that she shouldn't be moved without good reason, the question becomes whether a blind and objective measure of RS is a good reason per COMMONNAME. Many think it is, you disagree; I get that. WP:CONCISE gives one "family name" example pursuant to your quote, and it's Oprah vs Oprah Winfrey. Is it patently unreasonable to postulate that they're talking about a person's current surname, not the maiden names of married women? No one is proposing moving her to "Hillary". ― Mandruss ☎ 18:14, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

What about the usage by all her opponents? [ edit ]

Since her announcement of candidacy ALL of her opponents, female or male, married or not, from the left and from the right, have acceded to that primacy of use established on Hillary Clinton's website/Facebook page/all other aspects of her rollout, referencing her solely as "Hillary Clinton." This evinces a universality of recognition that the common name here is "Hillary Clinton" because neither she nor anybody opposed to her projects any utility in reducing the clarity inherent in using that name. For example, here is left-most Senator Bernie Sanders, “I do have doubts that Hillary Clinton or any Republican out there will take on big-money interests who control so much of our economy," and on the other side here is corporatist/rightist Carly Fiorina (hmmmm, not Carly Sneed Fiorina), "Hillary Clinton must not be president." Statements similarly reflecting "Hillary Clinton" can be found from declared and undeclared candidates on both sides -- Ted Cruz and Martin O'Malley; Rand Paul and Elizabeth Warren; Marco Rubio and Lincoln Chafee; and yet I cannot find a single statement by a single potential 2016 rival which disagrees with Hillary Clinton's own website. Pandeist (talk) 19:35, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, Hillary Clinton is more commonly referred to, so that's what the name of this article should be. No word on whether she is a fit candidate for president, because I'm not voting. Epic Genius (talk) 19:41, 26 April 2015 (UTC) Yes but I'm keen to see if opposers of the move have any answer to this proposition. If not I'd have to cut the estimation of opposition neatly by half. Pandeist (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Here are more. Just yesterday here is Rand Paul, "There's only one candidate beating Hillary Clinton in Iowa now." And here is sometimes mentioned Dem Senator Amy Klobuchar, "we have seen Hillary Clinton being attacked for various things." Pandeist (talk) 21:40, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

This is a serious question, can no opposer of the page renaming rationally answer for this? If none can I am liable to change my vote to support the move, and sooner than later.... Pandeist (talk) 01:53, 27 April 2015 (UTC) The key word is "opponents". Her opponents want to tie her hand and foot to her husband, Billy Bob Clinton, he of Monica fame. They will be running against him as much if not more than her. So of course they want to remind the voters that she is a Clinton. If they used her full name they'd be reminding voters that Hillary had more time as just Hillary Rodham than as a Clinton, and that her career has surpassed his on some levels. In presidential campaigns she is 'Hillary Clinton', or just 'Hillary' (can we rename the page 'Hill' for brevity?), and that is the way that ball bounces. In real life and career, she's Hillary Rodham Clinton and proud of it. A good but morbid way to judge how she thinks of herself: I take out my WP:CRYSTAL and look at her tombstone and yes, her full name will attach itself to her through eternity, death being the opponent on which Hillary Rodham Clinton - with the Rodham proudly attached - will have the last laugh. Randy Kryn 11:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC) If we are going by tombstones, we would need to move Betty Ford to Elizabeth Bloomer Ford. bd2412 T 17:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Randy Kryn: Pandeist (talk) 22:29, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Pandeist: Randy Kryn makes a good point here that I had missed in the wall of words here, hence my late reply. But to your question, it is not relevant what her opponents call her in a political campaign of the last weeks or months. This is a biography of her whole life. Tvoz/ talk 20:34, 6 May 2015 (UTC) I am immediately leery of the proposition that we ought to limit our consideration to those sources perceptible as in immediate alliance with one favored political person who happens to have access to Wikipedia's levers of power. That seems to me to be short-circuiting the opinions of half the country or more in one blow. Pandeist (talk) 20:55, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: Just FYI, the last RM discussion was a year ago [15]. If you've been seeing other discussions lately about the article title, they haven't been RMs, but only informal discussions about the possibility of a RM. Softlavender (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Note: I have moved this discussion down from the "Neutral" section:

Liz: never seen the article before happen upon it, are confused by the title, and propose to change it, even though they have no idea that anyone has proposed this before (the current discussion was prompted by exactly that kind of proposal). We can't punish new editors for not knowing what old battles have been fought under different circumstances, but new editors will make move proposals as long as the title is confusing to at least some of them. bd2412 T 22:25, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, it seems like it just happened, if I recall correctly, there was a moratorium on suggesting article title changes for a while there. But maybe it is just vivid in my memory and it was a year ago. I remember it being contentious. Liz Read! Talk! 22:33, 26 April 2015 (UTC) It was contentious - that might be why it is vividly remembered! ;-) bd2412 T 22:36, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

One person, many valid names [ edit ]

I've added the words "also known as Hillary Clinton or Hillary Rodham Clinton" to the intro, which seems to be appropriate regardless of the decision regarding this move. As far as I can see, she has had, or used, the following names:

Hillary Diane Rodham, her official birth name

Hillary Rodham, the name she used, and was most commonly referred to by, before her marriage

Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton, her official name after taking her husband's name

Hillary Rodham Clinton, her preferred name for herself. both then and now

Hillary Clinton, the name the public knows her by, which is also the name she primarily uses in her official campaign materials

All of these names are, or have been, in their respective contexts, valid names for the same person, and she currently uses both of the last two herself, in two different contexts -- The Anome (talk) 20:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Personally I wouldn't put also known as, because she's not known as Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton. I would remove the word "also". Softlavender (talk) 20:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Hugh Mungo Grant [ edit ]

@Anthonyhcole, you say that "Hillary's people told Jimmy she prefers HRC. On a matter such as this, where neither name diminishes the reader experience, we should respect the preference of the subject over a style guide. It is a matter of respecting the human dignity of our BLP subjects." So, if Hugh Grant's people notify Jimmy's people that Mr. Grant would like his Wikipedia page to be titled "Hugh Mungo Grant" then we would have to comply to respect Mr. Grant's human dignity notwithstanding Wikipedia policies?18.51.3.209 (talk) 00:33, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

When a credible expression of preference comes from a living person that we write about, we give it appropriate weight in our deliberations. Where it won't negatively affect our readers' experience, we should always honour their preference. It's about respecting human dignity, and a name is a very important part of identity. Let me know when Hugh requests a title change. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:10, 27 April 2015 (UTC) As you know, "Mungo" is really part of Grant's legal name. Does that matter, or can any subject of a BLP successfully request a random middle name for their BLP? Maybe Elizabeth Warren would like "Elizabeth Presidential Warren" or what have you. The fact is, Hillary Clinton could make "Hillary Rodham Clinton" her common-name at the drop of a hat if she wanted to. Instead, she wants her common name to be "Hillary Clinton" except when dealing with particular demographics like Wikipedia-users. You realize that, right? It's not like this kind of situation has crept up on us all of a sudden, and yet no one has successfully amended the relevant policies to allow BLP subjects to alter their article titles by contacting Jimmy.18.51.3.209 (talk) 01:33, 27 April 2015 (UTC) That weirdly-skewed demographic: Wikipedia-users. By the way, are you also contributing to this discussion using your user name? You're obviously an experienced editor. What user name do you usually use? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:42, 27 April 2015 (UTC) In any event, the argument put forward here is invalid because it is not analogous. To my knowledge, if Hugh Grant did come forward with such a request it would be surprising, out-of-context, possibly even a joke, coming out of thin air for no apparent reason. In the case of Hilary, she has used the longer version formally for a long time, and has made public statements about it and why. It is part of her identity, and she has expressed a preference. Does her preference absolutely override all else? Of course not, and the supposition that the Hugh Grant case is similar is a straw man argument - it isn't *just* the preference of the subject that matters, but the preference of the subject, reasonably expressed, is one factor among many.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:57, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Jimbo Wales: strength of preference, telegraphed by the actions of the subject. If there was a dispute about whether your article should be moved from "Jimmy Wales" to "Jimbo Wales", and the basis was a substantial preference in the media for the latter, how strongly would you feel about the proposal? I submit that a preference must be weighed in light of the actions of the person expressing that preference. Some editors have suggested that the prominent use of "Hillary Clinton" in her campaigns is just branding, but it is persistent, intentional, and successful branding that is under the control of the candidate, and we rename articles on brands when the owner of the brand succeeds in taking steps to change the perceived name of the brand in the public mind. bd2412 T 17:15, 27 April 2015 (UTC) She's a person. This is a brief biography of a person, not a summary of a brand. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:58, 28 April 2015 (UTC) She's a person who is intentionally presenting herself in the most prominent way possible as "Hillary Clinton", and is thereby succeeding in convincing most of the world that this is her common name. That cannot be discounted. bd2412 T 14:10, 28 April 2015 (UTC) It can and should be discounted. Per our policies. The article name is supposed to be the common name used while the subject came to prominence. Everyone who is 40+ years old knows that every time the media referred to HRC in the 90's(and before), they described her as Hillary Rodham Clinton. It was droned into our brains during the healthcare debates in the early 90's, and 'Whitewater' throughout the mid-late 90's. Recent trends can ONLY be taken into considerations if there were a name change. There has not been, and in fact HRC reiterated she prefers to be addressed as 'Hillary Rodham Clinton'. Dave Dial (talk) 14:22, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Can you point me to a policy that says the article name "is supposed to be the common name used while the subject came to prominence"? That seems to run counter to the idea of ever changing an article name to suit the changing plurality of references, even though it is a common practice to change article names for exactly that reason. For example, the Willis Tower certainly came to prominence as the "Sears Tower", Jenna Coleman came to prominence as "Jenna-Louise Coleman", and Odisha came to prominence as "Orissa". All have since been renamed in Wikipedia. bd2412 T 14:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Better example: What if Niel DeGrasse Tyson said tomorrow he wanted to be known as Neil Tyson? Oiyarbepsy (talk) 12:59, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

What if he didn't say he wanted to be known as "Neil Tyson", but started having his name included in television credits as "Neil Tyson"? What if he ran for high office as "Neil Tyson", and presented himself in a way that caused the media to report that as his name, and the public to think that was his name? bd2412 T 13:06, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales: ... she has expressed a preference. " and that " the preference of the subject, reasonably expressed, is one factor among many. " I'm wondering how this squares with the very explicitly written p&g at WP:NOTSHOWCASE/WP:NOTADVOCATE. I can't remember seeing any policy/guidance quotation to say that we should take an individuals less widely broadcast views into account in these matters. If there is then I would like to see it. If there is no such content then I think we should write it. However I can't see a reason why we should make, and from reading what you say I'm guessing you agree, a special case for a particular political figure. We also have cases like Cheryl Fernandez-Versini, Yusef Islam, Kaley Cuoco-Sweeting and others who not only would like to be known by these names but who also make, to varying extremes, consistent presentations of themselves by these names. In contrast the name most consistently and publicly presented by the subject is "Hillary Clinton". I'm personally concerned, in the context that in news reports I have not heard the name Rodham once, that Wikipedia is picking and choosing who it WP:advocates for. Another argument is that, because of pressures in US society, the subject may not have felt able to present herself so publicly as HRC. I raised this issue at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#When a person's public image is possibly influenced by prejudice but there has been no expressed inclination to move policy in this direction. I also made a similar proposal in the thread Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton#A legitimate use of a SOAPBOX PLATFORM that Rodham does not use? so as to ask whether there was a way in which we might find a route for legitimate advocacy but, again, these proposals gained no support. I think that we are left with a stark situation, as stated in the lead, in which " Wikipedia only responds to real world situations of actuality and does not give any special consideration to any privately expressed view as to how a subject may personally want to have their name presented. " Failing application or IAR we can't make special allowances in a case in which a person makes all of her most far reaching broadcasts of her name in a form which, apparently, is in some way and to some extent, not her preference. GregKaye 18:10, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────┘Then you have ignored the several times I have already pointed you to the policy that states we should take the articles subject preferred name into consideration. Citing BLP. Here is part of the policy- WP:SPNC. In which Hillary Rodham Clinton stated in 1983("I need my own identity too."), and again in 1993(["It's Hillary Rodham Clinton. Got That?"]) that she prefers to be addressed as Hillary Rodham Clinton. Seeing as HRC is an American, the way she is addressed in her own Country takes precedence per our Title policy. To claim that a women's preference to include her family name is somehow 'soapboxing' is an insult. Dave Dial (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

I am not at all convinced that she uses "Hillary Clinton" because of some perceived prejudice against maiden names. Some very successful women in politics have used both names as their campaign name - Kay Bailey Hutchison, Margaret Chase Smith, Christine Todd Whitman. They were able to do so because they used their name consistently throughout their political career, so there was no recognition problem. Some men have also successfully used longer versions of their names in politics - William Howard Taft comes to mind. bd2412 T 18:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC) And you know that she filed her FEC papers as 'Hillary Rodham Clinton' too. Campaign posters or ads are just that, campaigns. They are not reliable sources. But thanks for the polite response. Dave Dial (talk) 18:30, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

If Ngram's the question, just plain "Hillary" is the answer [ edit ]

Might I point out that if we're going to go by Ngram, HRC is by far most referred to as simply Hillary ? If ghits is the criterion, Hillary is the only possible answer. μηδείς (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Surely some of those hits for just "Hillary" actually describe Edmund Hillary, or other people named "Hillary". What is the most concise title to exactly describe this subject, and only this subject? bd2412 T 02:46, 27 April 2015 (UTC) But again we are going by recent Ngrams or ghits or whatever. Do a verbatim search for "Hillary" and Edmund Hillary might show up. Do a news search, and see how many headlines call her anything more than just Hillary. The Ngram game is just a game. μηδείς (talk) 04:26, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

? If ghits is the criterion, Hillary is the only possible answer. μηδείς (talk) 02:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

μηδείς What you are asking is for something that is difficult to judge. The following searches in books may help:

The only thing that is for sure from this is that there is far more prevalent use in books that refer to the subject as "Hillary Clinton" than refer to her as "Hillary Rodham Clinton" GregKaye 19:07, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, thanks for all the hard work, but my point is really rhetorical. Whether yo get H, HC, or HRC is going to depend on the context. Obviously bumperstickers and campaign ads with HRC would be a bad choice, I have sold and designed advertising, and would advise against it. But as demonstrated above, HRC's own preference and what she uses officially is HRC. μηδείς (talk) 19:11, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

@DD2K: Aka "Dave Dial," I am confused as to why your Google Scholar searches have this weird date range parameter showing only results from 1970(?) to 2000. Is there a reason you're not showing results from 2000 to 2015? I am guessing it is because those results show "Hillary Clinton" as being three times as used, but maybe you just put in those date ranges by accident? I do hope there's a good explanation, because it initially looks a bit shady. Somebody else pointed out another error by you in your ngram formulation -- and then you deleted both comments. If people have to resort to classic misdirection techniques to abet their positions, they simply ought not be counted. Pandeist (talk) 02:14, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

As I stated in my oppose, the valid dates are 1970-2000. because that is when the article was created(2001). The only policies given are for article creation, not renaming articles. Our policy on renaming articles is clear(via my links to policy). Dave Dial (talk) 02:20, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Also, do not accuse me of things that are obviously false. If you bothered to read my whole comment, or the past move request, you would see the reasons. And you should not make new threads with editors handles in them. Dave Dial (talk) 02:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC) I might've bothered to read it if it were better written. I haven't made up my mind yet, but you're certainly making it up for me in a hurry. Pandeist (talk) 02:30, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

More rudeness from you. It doesn't surprise me. Don't let me stop you from !voting any way you choose. This is not a vote, and is based on Wikipedia policy. So the 'vote' could be 75-25(like it was last time) and policy based reality still would need to trump numbers. And our policy is clear, imo. Dave Dial (talk) 02:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC) And I'm not "voting" -- I'm contemplating a neutral evaluation of policy based reality. A tiebreaker, if you will. And what you perceive as rudeness is a mirror. Contemplate that!! Pandeist (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Dave Dial Please retract your presented material on view that they give skewed results that dont represent what they claim. GregKaye 12:24, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Dave Dial In your edit above dated 01:38, 27 April 2015 you have presented the scholar search results above as follows:

An equivalent to your second search would have been:

An equivalent to your first search would have been.

Your presentation of " Scholar( HRC , HC ) " is misleading. Contrary to your presentation of rigged searches, non skewed results in no way " favor Hillary Rodham Clinton ". Your presentation of the "ngram results " search displays, according to my interpretation, equal manipulation. GregKaye 13:15, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

And I call bullshit on that. As soon as the RM initiators remove their cherry-picked data(from 2014-present), as if 'Hillary Clinton' popped out of nowhere and wasn't referred to as "Hillary Rodham Clinton' from 1983-2003. From the vast majority of reliable sourcing. Any American who was old enough during the 90's remembers that name over and over and over. So no, I'm not removing jack shit. And ffs quit pinging me and adding mt name to headers. Sheesh. Dave Dial (talk) 13:24, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Dave Dial I am really trying to find reason not to change my currently neutral !vote to support but given attacks on talk pages and what I interpret to by your manipulations, I'm not finding it easy. Here are the Ngram results from 2004 to 2015. So what is your point? I have found the statistics interesting and I thank you for them. However, while the statistics of the proposal were transparently presented, your presentation as at 01:38, 27 April 2015 was not. Where have I added your name to headers? GregKaye 14:46, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Greg, I am going to ask you one more time. Please stop pinging me. I have this page on my watch list, and will see questions. I may or may not choose to answer them, but I won't respond to any more that Ping me. Let me ask you something, are you over 40 and an American? Because any 40+ American that followed politics in the 90's knows damn well that HRC is the common name of Hillary. We have the 1970's where Hillary was semi-notable as 'Hillary Rodham', and from 1983 to 2001 where she was definitely notable as 'Hillary Rodham Clinton'. Perhaps from 2002-2008 HRC and HC were used almost hand and hand, and from 2009-2015 HC has surpassed HRC in google hits. But we take the totality of the subjects notability, not the most recent trends. To pretend that the past 35 years didn't exist is not the way this RM should be conducted. As for your !vote, make it any fashion you desire. I'm not here to tell you how to express your opinion of policy. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 15:04, 30 April 2015 (UTC) I have a few comments to add to that. First, there's no point in one editor asking another to retract an error (or asserted error) if that error has been publicly identified. Other participants in the discussion will see both the assertion and the rebuttal of it, and can make up their own minds about its value. Second, the reason the proposal cites changes in the last year is because some opponents of having the discussion asserted that nothing had changed between last year and this year; the trend of scholarly publications increasingly using only "Hillary Clinton" is such a change, and one that will only be increased by the current campaign dynamic. Of course, it is not as big a change as we are likely to see by this time next year, but it is identified solely as an indication of a continuing trend. Lastly, it is worth noting that about half of all Americans are under 40 (and those who are now over 40 were not necessarily paying attention to politics in the 90s, though they may have started paying attention later). bd2412 T 15:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC) BD2412It I get annoy by what I interpret to be the wilful shading of information. DD2K I'm from Good old Sussex by the Sea. Its in the UK and, if you did not know that, this may help illustrate my next points. I have in the past personally gone out of my way to watch documentaries about the history of the Hillary Rodham and Bill Clinton and their spectacular progression in politics but, apart from that, I don't remember once hearing the name Rodham. It has always been "Hillary Clinton". This is why, when I was recently scanning through the listing at User:West.andrew.g/Popular pages the first and only page that seemed to be wrongly named was Hillary Rodham Clinton. It seemed so preposterously wrong that I didn't even think to check the history of the page as I might have normally done. It just seemed wrong, really wrong. Then I made my I think good but succinct RM proposal - now found at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton/Archive 21#Requested move 9 April 2015 (retracted on a technicality) - and was very surprised at the reaction. The idea that the move wouldn't go through easily just seemed crazily outlandish. "Hillary Rodham Clinton" is not her commonly recognizable name, its very, very far from it. I've also taken an interest to ask just a few people if they knew "Hillary Clinton's middle name". Apologies for phrasing it like that but, for my purpose, that's all I needed to do. No one knew. The question that you asked is a good one which made me think to visit Wikipedia's List of countries by English-speaking population. The states is listed as having a total of ~298,444,149 English speakers. The rest of the world has a combined total of ~976,880,101 English speakers. Sure some of those people may be from a country like Canada or perhaps Mexico where they may hear more of the of the US coverage but many many others will not be familiar with the Rodham designation. Similarly many people even from the US may be under 40 and may, you tell me, have had relatively little contact with the name "Hillary Rodham Clinton". Britannica Inc. may have a vested interest, for all I know, in servicing to the sensibilities of the US public but Wikipedia is a service and we provide for the needs of the wider population. In the above thread Jimbo wrote " the preference of the subject, reasonably expressed, is one factor among many. " This, however, is a minor issue. Wikipedia is not in the "business" of writing so as to fit in with the sensibilities of the people that we are writing about. Our central concern is that we write for our english speaking readers - a great many of whom are not in the United States. Thank-you. You have helped me decide on my !vote. GregKaye 20:18, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

List of books by or about Hillary Rodham Clinton [ edit ]

@GregKaye: I noticed your comment about the List of books by or about Hillary Rodham Clinton part of the proposal. I actually had been working on a move request just for that list, a while back. It was on the back burner, but since you mentioned it I thought I'd add my comments on it here. I don't expect this to necessarily change your opinion, but I did look into it and would like you to consider what I have found.

First , the current title is nine words and fourteen syllables. It can be reduced to eight words and twelve syllables by taking out one word that readers are rarely, if ever, going to type in when looking for such a list, since more than nine times out of ten, a person searching for anything about its subject is going to type "Hillary Clinton." (This is actually a question independent of the name of the article on the subject, because that is still only a three word title.) As per WP:SHORTFORM, it is common for this reason to use a shorter form of the original title for subtopic titles. Probably the most comparable examples from that section would be: Madonna (entertainer), but Madonna bibliography, not Madonna (entertainer) bibliography, and Brandy Norwood, but Brandy discography and List of songs recorded by Brandy, not Brandy Norwood discography or List of songs recorded by Brandy Norwood.

, the current title is nine words and fourteen syllables. It can be reduced to eight words and twelve syllables by taking out one word that readers are rarely, if ever, going to type in when looking for such a list, since more than nine times out of ten, a person searching for about its subject is going to type "Hillary Clinton." (This is actually a question independent of the name of the article on the subject, because that is still only a three word title.) As per WP:SHORTFORM, it is common for this reason to use a shorter form of the original title for subtopic titles. Probably the most comparable examples from that section would be: Madonna (entertainer), but Madonna bibliography, not Madonna (entertainer) bibliography, and Brandy Norwood, but Brandy discography and List of songs recorded by Brandy, not Brandy Norwood discography or List of songs recorded by Brandy Norwood. Second, although Google Trends does not have enough information to generate comparisons for the phrases "books by Hillary Clinton" versus "books by Hillary Rodham Clinton" or "books about Hillary Clinton" versus "books about Hillary Rodham Clinton," it does provide the following numbers for "Hillary Clinton books" versus "Hillary Rodham Clinton books," which shows that the common search term for such a list of books would use "Hillary Clinton," by an average ratio of about 60 to 1:



┌─────────────────────────┘ Thank you WPGA2345 for genuinely informative content for which I am grateful and which will certainly be on my mind as I continue to consider my position. BTW, not that this carries any weight of argument, I consider myself to be a prime author of this RM having contributed at least half of its content.

An additional content that I thought of adding was as follows.

A search in books on ("Hillary Clinton" OR "Hillary Rodham Clinton") AND (Biography OR Autobiography) on 15 April 15 sequentially listed the following 10 results of books classified as "Biography & Autobiography" or "BIOGRAPHY & AUTOBIOGRAPHY". The sequential list also includes reference to books placed in other categories and these have been given a double indent. A sequential approach was taken so as to not selectively present content in a partisan way.

Basically there seems to me that usage in books reference slightly favours "Hillary Rodham Clinton" and the fact that Hillary Diane Rodman publishes under the "Hillary Rodham Clinton" pen name I think is a further argument for presenting this as a part of the current, I believe, encyclopedic title.

While I do not believe that a marginal prevalence in books for the use of "Hillary Rodham Clinton" should carry any great weight in the general (Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton) naming debate within our largely news dominated media society, I certainly think this information to be of great relevance in regard to a perspective move of: List of books by or about Hillary Rodham Clinton → List of books by or about Hillary Clinton.

To me a difference in 14 and 12 syllables is of little consequence when our aim is to develop encyclopedic content.

The scope of the RM was increased to cover multiple pages on 23 April by BD2412.

I personally think that the difference in Hillary Diane Rodman's self presentation in regard to her publishing endevours might have set this particular subject area slightly apart.

GregKaye 05:25, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

It may also be relevant to note that, in searches in books: "Hillary Clinton" books gets "About 94,700 results" while "Hillary Rodham Clinton" books gets "About 18,100 results" GregKaye 05:39, 27 April 2015 (UTC) Is it really though? Since these google results have been shown to be flawed, at best. As one can see just by clicking on your results there, every single result on the first page from the "Hillary Clinton" books search has "Hillary Rodham Clinton" as the main name of HRC. Every. Single. Result. Sans the 'graphic novel', which has a cartoon of HRC stating she kept her family name to have her own identity, much to the chagrin the parents. Dave Dial (talk) 05:59, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, ever since Google started massively spamming the Books results with completely unrelated books (this started a few years ago), Google Books results counts cannot be trusted at all. Softlavender (talk) 11:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

TY Softlavender and I don't dispute this. Never-the-less the use of any form of search list from an organisation that may be interpreted not to themselves have any preference of name use provides a potentially neutral context within which name usage may be assessed. GregKaye 07:52, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

New evidence - Op ed signed "Hillary Clinton" in today's Des Moines Register [ edit ]

This is new evidence directed particularly towards those editors who oppose a move based on the name Hillary Clinton uses with respect to "publications". Specifically, Hillary Clinton published an op-ed piece in today's Des Moines Register, and signed it as "Hillary Clinton". This is not a piece purported to be from a campaign staffer or any other person, but directly from Hillary Clinton herself. bd2412 T 21:27, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

So in other words, more "look what I found on Google today". Tarc (talk) 23:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC) No, it was reported in other news outlets. It can't be dismissed that easily. bd2412 T 23:36, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

You will never win on the "here's what I saw in the news today" argument, as many Rodham uses can be cited alongside non-Rodham uses. Tarc (talk) 02:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

For the record, Clinton herself was signing her own name as "Hillary Clinton" in that op-ed. Epic Genius (talk) 02:09, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Yes, that is the point which seems to have eluded Tarc; Hillary Clinton can sign an op-ed however she wants; she chose to sign it "Hillary Clinton". I really don't see how the significance of this development is hard to understand. bd2412 T 02:14, 28 April 2015 (UTC) What in the world are you talking about? I don't see any signature from that link at all. And even if she did 'sign' something saying "Hillary Clinton", how does that count against the thousands upon thousands of signatures of "Hillary Rodham Clinton"? You know, the thousands and thousands of official documents she has signed? You guys crack me up. Dave Dial (talk) 02:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC) It doesn't need to be a handwritten signature. A typed signature does just fine. And maybe she signs official documents with her maiden name because they're, you know, official. Epic Genius (talk) 02:59, 28 April 2015 (UTC) There is neither a typed signature nor a handwritten one that I can see. Since both you and BD2412 have made this claim, point to people where HRC has 'signed' this op-ed as HC. Otherwise, this claim is a farce. Dave Dial (talk) 03:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Most web browsers now incorporate a word search function. Open the article in your browser, figure out how to do that word search, and search for "Hillary Clinton". Right at the beginning you will see: "Hillary Clinton, Special to the Register". That is how an op-ed in the Des Moines Register is signed. bd2412 T 03:28, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Wow. You've got to be kidding me. Dave Dial (talk) 03:33, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Yeah, seriously. It blows my mind. Clinton herself used "HC" as the name that she would be using at the top. Just wow. Epic Genius (talk) 13:20, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Do you mean the "HILLARY CLINTON is a Democratic candidate for president and former secretary of state."? Who signs in third person? I would call that a back announcement by the editor. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:42, 28 April 2015 (UTC) No, I am referring to "Hillary Clinton, Special to the Register", at the top. bd2412 T 12:36, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Ahh. OK. Thanks. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:05, 28 April 2015 (UTC) That is where the reporter's name would usually go, but the point still stands: Clinton must have chosen to use that as her displayed name in the article. Epic Genius (talk) 13:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Bd-whatever continues to whiff on the point here; for every utterance of "HC", I can pull up an instance of "HRC", day in and day out. That is why past RMs close and no consensus and why this one will/should eventually wind up that way as well. This is a dead heat, and since we're already sitting on "HRC", that is what we stay at. If no good reason is presented to rename an article, then you don't rename it. Simple. Tarc (talk) 04:15, 28 April 2015 (UTC) "Bd-whatever"? Is that supposed to signify that you are unable to read numbers? bd2412 T 13:21, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Tarc's first point is correct, and it means that Supporters are pretty much committing suicide by even engaging in such arguments. As Tarc said, the burden is on the Support side. By far the strongest Support argument is a blind, automated reading of all reliable sources, per COMMONNAME. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:33, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Indeed. The problem that Tarc embodies here is what I call the Wyoming/Virginia problem. Tarc can "prove" that Wyoming has twice as many people as Virginia if, for every person I name from Virginia, he names two from Wyoming, until we run out of time after each naming a few thousand people. If we disqualify raw data results (like Google hits and Census data), then Tarc can convince a neutral arbitrator (and himself) that he has thereby proved that the empty sagebrush of Wyoming has twice the population of Virginia. Of course, this also deviates from one of our most standard and most recommended practices in RM discussions - citing Google results and other search engine returns to demonstrate the relative commonality of use for a particular name. There is no reason to suspect the particular search engine results provided, or the trending proportionate increase that they reflect over the past year, in the use of "Hillary Clinton" as the default identifier for this subject. bd2412 T 13:43, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Or, more accurately, Tarc can convince the arbitrator that you have failed to make your case. Opposers don't need to prove anything, they only need to divide the arguments enough, and confuse the discussion enough, to make consensus for move impossible. Whatever works. ― Mandruss ☎ 13:57, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Mandruss , I know that you know what an encyclopedia is. We are meant to be building one. We are not here to play such petty manipulative games. GregKaye 20:31, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Comment placed out of sequence GregKaye That's an assumption of bad faith. As someone who opposes this move, I am not here to "make consensus impossible". I feel this article is where it should be, and have said why. So have others. Omnedon (talk) 14:03, 28 April 2015 (UTC) I wasn't lumping all Opposers into one group. I would have thought that would be obvious. But there are enough of them that fit that description to get the job done. Anyone who cares to take me to ANI for that observation is welcome to give it a shot. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:05, 28 April 2015 (UTC) I agree with Omnedon. That's a pretty outrageous assumption of bad faith, and that "take me to ANI" comment is just an unnecessary ratcheting-up of rhetoric. Your accusations are just as unwelcome as the tactics you are accusing people of. It's my feeling that this move discussion had outlived its usefulness ages ago. At the end of the day, redirects mean it doesn't fucking matter what the article title is. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Bd's strawmen aside, the point remains that both HC vs. HRC usage can be found in many sources at any time, so again, what we have always had on this issue is a no-consensus deadlock. Perhaps some see it as a bit unfair and a "first mover" problem that the article first settled on HRC and thus remains by default, but "it is what it is". If you can't come up with a genuine need to rename the article, then it should remain as-is per WP:TITLECHANGES.Tarc (talk) 14:13, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Then do away with COMMONNAME entirely, if its application is not genuine. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:16, 28 April 2015 (UTC) WP:COMMONNAME aside, the fact that editors are even now pointing out that it fails WP:RECOGNIZABILITY for some portion of the population is a genuine need. bd2412 T 14:18, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Again, the point; both HC & HRC have a valid claim to WP:COMMONNAME. Tarc (talk) 14:33, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Only one is causing WP:RECOGNIZABILITY issues. What's wrong with using the title that more people will recognize? We have a pretty strong policy that says we should. bd2412 T 14:37, 28 April 2015 (UTC) There's no issue with WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. HRC has gone by HRC for like, ever. And REDIRECTS make the whole issue moot anyway. I don't care which title is used, but the arguments for using one over the other are flimsy on both sides. I just don't see a compelling reason for changing anything. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:55, 28 April 2015 (UTC) I am sure that you personally have not had an issue with WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, but there are editors who have come to this discussion, to previous discussions, and to the article talk page, who have had that issue (and those are just the ones who are involved enough with Wikipedia to be able to note the issue in these fora). We must assume good faith when other editors have such a problem (in this case, one that is easily solved by moving the page and having the redirects run the other way). bd2412 T 14:59, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Oh, come on! Nobody has come to Wikipedia and been unable to find Hillary Clinton, or figure out that Hillary Clinton and Hillary Rodham Clinton are the same person. I just don't know how you can possibly claim otherwise. HRC used Hillary Rodham Clinton consistently until at least 2006, so only people less than 9 years old could possibly be confused, and the redirect solves that problem anyway. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:05, 28 April 2015 (UTC) We are talking about now, not about 2006, when everyone outside of professional sources is calling Hillary "HC". Redirects take up server space, too, and the more views that redirects get,the more useful it is to move that article over that redirect. Epic Genius (talk) 15:12, 28 April 2015 (UTC) All I can say about the WP:RECOGNIZABILITY issue is that if people are coming here (or other places) and saying they have a problem with it, I take them at their word. As for "people less than 9 years old", that presumes that someone who was, say, three years old (or six, or ten) in 2006 should have been aware of the name being used by the Senator from New York. I don't know about you, but I probably had little knowledge of senators from outside my own state until I was at least a teenager. Of course, that is not even addressing English-language news in countries like India. bd2412 T 16:01, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

If there has been a COMMONNAME-based argument for HRC that doesn't pick-and-choose sources and assert that they are more meaningful than all reliable sources combined, I've missed it. ― Mandruss ☎ 14:36, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Google Search Interest [ edit ]

By using Google Trends to gauge search interest, there is a clearly much higher value for Hillary Clinton than there is for Hillary Rodham Clinton. You can personally verify the graph at http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=Hillary%20Rodham%20Clinton%2C%20Hillary%20Clinton&cmpt=q&tz=. EoRdE6 (Come Talk to Me!) 00:04, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

This has no relavence. Google trend shows the trend in what people search for on Google and that is all it is. Rather we should look at which name is most often used by reliable sources. Mbcap (talk) 17:32, 28 April 2015 (UTC) This image is irrelevant and should be removed so as not to bias the discussion. The eye automatically wanders to images and people retain images better than text (picture superiority effect). The use of images in this discussion is excessive, especially irrelevant or misleading images. -- Sonic Y (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2015 (UTC) How is a picture that distinctly shows what people in general think the name of the subject is irrelevant? bd2412 T 18:41, 28 April 2015 (UTC) What exactly is misleading or irrelevant about this graph? I really don't get it.- MrX 18:56, 28 April 2015 (UTC) @ BD2412: We do not base our decisions on what (you believe) internet users think or do. We base our decisions on reliable (secondary) sources. -- Sonic Y (talk) 19:09, 28 April 2015 (UTC) "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles."- MrX 19:28, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Quoting from the same page: Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject . RS, not internet users. Besides, the sentence you quoted refers to what readers are likely to to search for on Wikipedia, not Google. -- Sonic Y (talk) 19:55, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Reliable sources nowadays mostly say Hillary Clinton. People search on Google and find Wikipedia. Epic Genius (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

This should give us pause. If the most common search is for "Hillary Clinton" it means that this is what the article should be called in WP. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:23, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The commonest search terms are merely an indicator of the most unique terms someone can think of that will easily identify a topic in as few keystrokes as possible. I use the minimum search terms necessary to pull up any search. I don't NEED to type in Hillary Rodham Clinton. Just plain Hillary Clinton is enough to bring her up; why would I type in more than that? The fact I don't need to specify 'Rodham' when I type in Hillary and Clinton is completely irrelevant to what her actual name is or what the article name should be. Should we move the Diana, Princess of Wales article to Princess Diana? Because very few people search for her using 'Diana, Princess of Wales.' They type in Princess Diana (or even just Princess Di) and up she comes. And we handle it by redirecting Princess Di to Diana, Princess of Wales because that was her name. valereee (talk) 14:19, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Yet more discussion [ edit ]

Changes to WP:NATURALNESS [ edit ]

Since the beginning of this RM discussion the edits have been made to WP:AT that affect WP:NATURALNESS. In this case additions for the sake of disambiguation are considered to be excluded from title content when assessments related to naturalness are made, GregKaye 07:47, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for providing that. What's your take on its impact here? Pandeist (talk) 07:54, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Pandeist I guess it is a moot point now as the text has been edited back to its original form. It says: Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English. In this Mbcap is incorrect on this occasion in saying that the google trend results are not relevant. Naturalness is the third most important issue in article naming after Recognizability and NPOV and part of this relates to searchable terms. I have already commented on the vast number of links that direct to the namespace for "Hillary Clinton". I guess the argument is that we are misrepresenting our links if we make them say one thing while the destination presents something else. I have also commented that other of our links notably have piping such as " [[Hillary Rodham Clinton|Hillary Clinton]] " and " [[Hillary Rodham Clinton|Clinton]] " In the view of policy the links and the title do not most "naturally" fit together. GregKaye 21:03, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Yes that does seem apparent now -- an anomaly in the generally more smooth fabric of Wikipedia. Thank you for taking the time to make a thoughtful analysis. And blessings!! (skepticism and all) Pandeist (talk) 21:17, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia view stats [ edit ]

Hillary Rodham Clinton has 10 times more pageviews on Wikipedia than Hillary Clinton, so it would seem nobody is having any trouble finding it. There's no reader confusion and no technical reason for moving. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:05, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

Very incorrect assessment. Hillary Rodham Clinton's page view stats include ever page that redirects to it include Hillary Clinton, and other links directly to it, as most traffic comes from these. For example a google search for Hillary Clinton will link directly to the HRC page no matter what that person actually searched. EoRdE6 (Come Talk to Me!) 16:08, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Uhhhhh..Isn't that the point? Readers are not having a problem finding the article. That's blatantly obvious. Dave Dial (talk) 16:19, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Oh for crying out loud. That's like saying if I move White House to Sausage Head and leave a redirect, Sausage Head would get more views and therefore be the better name. No, it wouldn't be the most common name, so it's in the wrong place. EoRdE6 (Come Talk to Me!) 17:38, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Exactly, EoRdE6. Furthermore, Scjessey, yours is a quintessential straw man argument. Neither the nom nor anyone else is arguing the title should be changed because readers are having a problem finding the article with the current title, so "proving" that the article is not difficult to find is totally irrelevant. But it's telling that that is all that you've got. --В²C ☎ 20:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC) Nonsense. I posted this here as a specific response to all the WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and "reader confusion" bullshit in an earlier thread. And I've already said (several times) that I couldn't give a shit which title we go for. My contention has always be that there is no point whatsoever to the move. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:53, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Response [ edit ]

(I felt my full response would be little too detailed to inject into the oppose list above, so for courtesy and for ease of formatting I'm placing it here. –Huw)

HRC continues to be the preferred form in most major sources relevant to the subject. Significantly, this includes other encyclopedias and practically all government sources, as well as many of the subject's own works including her autobiography, plus the subject's own explicitly stated preference expressed during the last RM. HRC is also frequent in many news sources where (despite HC being most common overall) HRC is often used on first reference; it also dominates official documents where Hillary continues to use HRC (notably including her recent presidential candidacy filing), and much more.

This RM relies heavily on broad ngrams; unfortunately, these aren't a particularly reliable means for determining the title of any BLP (let alone this unusually complex one) due to problems like headlinese, the practice of shortening names after first reference, etc. It also rests heavily on a campaign site of Hillary's that uses the HC form, but this also isn't new; Hillary had a website using HC during the last RM too. These points don't overcome the many that support HRC – and certainly not to the very clear and overwhelming degree necessary to change the title given that Wikipedia policy cautions against swapping one contentious title for another.

In fairness, a detailed proposal merits a detailed response, so here are a few of the points I considered:

Recognizibility in high-level sources

Per Wikipedia guidelines, some sources may carry more significance than others in debates such as these, so it's good to consider the form preferred by "high-level sources". Like last time, official sources overwhelmingly favor HRC:

Also like last time, other encyclopedias use HRC:

Same for various politics-dedicated sources:

Same for a number of significant sources directly linked to Hillary herself:

Recognizibility in media

Raw frequency ngrams certainly favor HC over HRC as they always have, but HRC remains common on first reference. To use a current example, see the opening words of the stories from the nation's largest newspapers reporting the announcement of Hillary's presidential candidacy, showing how Hillary's name appears on first use in the text:

Note that even some that did not use HRC in the text nonetheless use HRC on profile pages (e.g. USA Today: Hillary Rodham Clinton). As before, Rodham's certainly not universal, but it remains common on first reference in the text, which I consider a more reliable indicator than a raw frequency ngram. Why? Among other things, raw frequency counts are affected by things like abbreviated headlinese or the shortening of a name after first reference – phenomena that make shorter forms more common but that don't necessarily indicate the form we should use as the title for a BLP article.

Recognizibility in international media

The nominator suggests that international readers may be "confused" by references to HRC, but little evidence is presented for this. On the contrary, The Times of India, the world's largest English language daily, prominently uses "Hillary Rodham Clinton". It does seems fair to say that the HRC is probably less common abroad than in the US, but it also seems fair to say that international readers are unlikely to be confused by references to HRC versus HC.

Other points

Regarding consistency, the nominator suggests the examples of "Elizabeth Dole" and "Laura Bush" as somehow equivalent to this case. They're not. The situation here is not that of a middle name, or of a maiden name that did not continue to be widely used after marriage; it's a maiden name that the individual has chosen to retain and use prominently over many years. Regarding Hillary's own personal preference, it was established as HRC by Hillary herself via Jimmy Wales who contacted her office during the last RM. This preference is also evident in sources ranging from her recent autobiography which she authored as "Hillary Rodham Clinton", to recent releases from the Office of Hillary Rodham Clinton, to Hillary's own statement of presidential candidacy. This is her choice and it's perfectly reasonable for a BLP to give due weight to that choice.

Put simply, deciding the most suitable title for a BLP article involves not just ngrams and raw frequency counts but also consideration of the kinds of sources that prefer each form, and how and in what ways that form is used. That consideration makes it clear that HRC is a perfectly suitable title, reflecting not only Hillary's explicit preference but also the preferred form used by government sources, other encyclopedias, Hillary's office, etc. Retaining the current title is best. ╠╣uw [talk] 19:20, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

My, that declaration of candidacy (FEC form 2) screen is interesting. That means, when we pull the lever, or touch the touchscreen, or mark the paper ballot, the name we see will be "Hillary Rodham Clinton"? And now it seems there will be a contested primary: Notice her name in the lead of this news report! AP sources: Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders to run for president. Your arguments are convincing – Wbm1058 (talk) 03:48, 29 April 2015 (UTC) Yeah, her FEC candidacy filing as "Hillary Rodham Clinton" is certainly interesting – particularly so when you see some other candidates filing as Marco Rubio (not Marco Antonio Rubio), Rand Paul (not Randal Howard Paul), etc. That said, though, I'm not sure that the form has any bearing on the style that the ballots will use; to me it's just interesting to see another data point indicating how Hillary chooses to respond when asked her name. ╠╣uw talk]

I want the shed to stay blue! [ edit ]

Perhaps my subject is a little on the silly side, but my rationale for opposing this move is this:

First, we are suppose to be a neutral encyclopedia, so the first question I asked myself is what would another reputable encyclopedia use for a title? The answer I came up with was http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/121809/Hillary-Rodham-Clinton I also came up with http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2744 http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Hillary_Rodham_Clinton.aspx Next, I asked myself, what does the White House call her? I came up with https://www.whitehouse.gov/1600/first-ladies/hillaryclinton which is confusing looking at the URL, but navigating to the page shows in 35px font "Hillary Rodham Clinton" with a lede of Hillary Diane Rodham Clinton served as the First Lady of the United States to the 42nd President, Bill Clinton. I also found http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/First_Lady/html/HILLARY_Home.html, http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/First_Lady/html/HILLARY_Bio.html, and http://www.whitehousehistory.org/history/white-house-first-ladies/first-lady-hillary-clinton.html (which although the header says "Hillary Clinton", the body text uses "Hillary Rodham Clinton" three times and "Hillary Clinton" none) Then I decided to poke around in other places and found http://www.amazon.com/Hillary-Rodham-Clinton/e/B000APZ9VU http://www.wic.org/bio/hclinton.htm http://www.hillaryclintonmemoir.com/ https://www.clintonfoundation.org/blog/authors/hillary-rodham-clinton-and-chelsea-clinton which all indicate that she self identifies as Hillary Rodham Clinton

Based on the fact that most other reputable encyclopedias use "Hillary Rodham Clinton", the fact that our governmental websites use primarily "Hillary Rodham Clinton", and the fact that she apparently self identifies as "Hillary Rodham Clinton", I think it is pretty clear that we should have the page at that title as well. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 15:10, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I am a bit disconcerted by the implications of Wikipedia surrendering its autonomy and allowing its content to be dictated by the practices of other products that are created with their own agendas, and which are demonstrably slow to adapt to changes. In some of these cases, following these other sources would also require us to move "Bill Clinton" to "William Jefferson Clinton", and to move "Nancy Reagan" to "Nancy Davis Reagan". bd2412 T 18:17, 29 April 2015 (UTC) "content to be dictated by the practices of other products" or 'the person involved', as I prefer to call it. Bill Clinton self-identifies as Bill Clinton. Hillary Rodham Clinton self-identifies as Hillary Rodham Clinton. This is entirely appropriate. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC) Well wait a moment now, maybe we ought to consider moving Bill Clinton to "William Jefferson Clinton." High-level sources including all professional biographies reference him as William Jefferson Clinton. Every time he has had to take an oath of office it has been as William Jefferson Clinton, so it is quite possible that that's his preference and his campaigns and such as "Bill" are only due to political and societal pressures to be folksy for the electorate. And it would make these article titles feel right together. Pandeist (talk) 2:44 pm, Today (UTC−4)

It is standard for both biographers and journalists in articles about people to use a more full name in opening. Biographers will generally dispose of the subjects name, ancestry and birth early on, and move on to more substantive matters. Journalists, perhaps, are looking for their word count, or want to show off, or are following the herd. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:41, 29 April 2015 (UTC).



Wanting the shed to stay blue is a quite interesting analogy by the way -- since sheds are usually red, and a representation of "blue" as the common color of sheds would verily merit amendment. And so wanting the shed to stay blue in that case, by reference to a few pics of sheds which were stentorially so hued, would be a Quixotian quest.... Pandeist (talk) 18:57, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Hillary's speeches [ edit ]

Rightly or wrongly, there seems to be considerable focus on the question of which form of Hillary's name is being publicly used since the formal kick-off of her campaign a couple weeks ago, so I thought I'd investigate the public speeches that Hillary herself is now making and document how she's identified.

Following the formal declaration of her candidacy on 12 April 2015 it looks like Hillary has given at least two major speeches with significant coverage; I've included relevant video links where available. I'll keep investigating and will add entries as speeches continue. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

29 April: Keynote speaker at the 18th annual David N. Dinkins Leadership and Public Policy Forum at Columbia University. Hillary is introduced by Columbia President Lee Bollinger [18][19] and David Dinkins[20] as as "Hillary Rodham Clinton". Identified on Columbia's site as as "Hillary Rodham Clinton".[21].

23 April: Keynote speaker at the sixth annual Women in the World Summit. Identified as "Hillary Rodham Clinton"[22]. (See also comments from organizer Tina Brown)

While waiting for more new speeches to be made, I figured I'd start working backwards into the speeches immediately preceding Hillary's announcement of candidacy: 23 March: Keynote speaker for the Robin Toner Prize ceremony, introduced as "Hillary Rodham Clinton".[23][24]

19 March: American Camp Association speech. [Looking for full video/transcript w/intro.]

10 March: Keynote speaker at the 2015 Women's Empowerment Principles Event, introduced as "Hillary Rodham Clinton".[25]

Ngrams again [ edit ]

Response to this edit. Dave Dial (talk) 22:55, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Survey of policy/guideline basis in !votes [ edit ]

Under construction -- В²C ☎ 05:53, 30 April 2015 (UTC) The following presents brief yet potentially subjectively distilled interpretations of the various policy or guidelines based reasons cited within !voting above. Under each cited reason, we list all the participants who cited that reason in their comment. If the policy or guideline is not explicitly cited but inferred, the inference is quoted here. Specific reference should be made to the actual comments of each editor concerned to verify what each editor specifically said.* #Support citing nom: Creator Xavier (1) "I agree" Cwobeel (2) "... move request is solid and relevant" BD2412 (3) "As stated above..." 331dot (4) "As stated above..." Softlavender (5) "every factor presented in the move proposal" Anythingyouwant (7) "per all of the reasons described in the move request" Epicgenius (11) "per the above" Rreagan007 (16) "As the above proposal clearly lays out" Davey2010 (17) "per above"

citing nom: #Support citing WP:COMMONNAME: 331dot (4) Softlavender (5) Muboshgu (6) GoodDay (8) Lukeno94 (9) Mandruss (10) Epicgenius (11) "more commonly used" The_Anome (12) NickCT (13) Mbcap (14) A_Quest_For_Knowledge (15) Rreagan007 (16) Davey2010 (17) Red_Slash (20) Mkativerata (21) "preponderance of reliable sources use 'Hillary Clinton'." Casprings (23) The_Rambling_Man (24) "she is 100% referred to as 'Hillary Clinton'" (25) SNUGGUMS (26) Ivanvector (27) Flatterworld (28) BDD (29) Montanabw (30) (31) PamD (32) Stephan_Schulz (33) Lankiveil (34)

citing WP:COMMONNAME: #Support citing recognizability: Softlavender (5)

citing recognizability: #Support citing Unnecessary disambiguation (WP:PRECISION) Muboshgu (6) "The 'Rodham' doesn't add anything in disambiguation" GoodDay (8) "because there's no other bio-article of a Hillary Clinton, therefore 'Rodham' isn't required to clarify wich Hillary Clinton we're mentioning." Ivanvector (27) - "I don't believe there are any other Hillary Clintons such that disambiguation is required"

citing Unnecessary disambiguation (WP:PRECISION) #Support citing WP:CONCISE Muboshgu (6) "the shorter version should be used" Anythingyouwant (7) "especially concision" Red_Slash (20) Ivanvector (27)

citing WP:CONCISE #Support citing Consistency Casprings (23) "...follows the same pattern as other well known political figures "

citing Consistency #Support per WP:JDLI (no policy-based reasons given) Beyond_My_Ken (22)

per WP:JDLI (no policy-based reasons given) NOTE: processed supporters through #34 #Oppose per interpreting WP:COMMONNAME to prefer scholarly, academic sources over merely reliable sources Chasewc91 (3) "WP:COMMONNAME prefers the common name in scholarly, academic sources to online sources" Tarc (9) "relied on higher-quality scholarly and professional sources" Winkelvi (14) "per reasons already stated by Chasewc91 and Tarc." DD2K (15) "Scholar(HRC, HC) and ngram results favor Hillary Rodham Clinton."

per interpreting WP:COMMONNAME to prefer scholarly, academic sources over merely reliable sources #Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME because it was more common in the past DD2K (15) "especially considering the time period where she became publicly known(1972-2000). In order for recent trends to be used for a common name, a name change needs to happen. HRC has not changed her name,..." "The attempt to state that Hillary Clinton is trending more than Hillary Rodham Clinton is flawed and irrelevant, since there has been no name change and recentism is not a policy based argument."

per WP:COMMONNAME because it was more common in the past #Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME because WP:OTHERSTUFF Casliber (13) "under WP:COMMONNAME we have John F. Kennedy rather than Jack Kennedy"

per WP:COMMONNAME because WP:OTHERSTUFF #Oppose per "subject preference" (NOTE: as opposer Tarc notes, "nowhere in our guidelines do we specifically give weight to the subject's wishes" , but this reason is cited so many times it's worth tabulating, but these are not references to title policy, and are arguably JDLI reasons too) Randy_Kryn (1) "She uses it ..." Alanscottwalker (2) Andy_Dingley (5) "Hillary Rodham Clinton uses that as her name." DHeyward (8) Tarc (9) "The subject's own preference is not a firm indicator of what the Wikipedia must do, as nowhere in our guidelines do we specifically give weight to the subject's wishes, but nowhere in said guidelines does it say subject preference is to be ignored either." Medeis (10) "she writes under Hillary Rodham Clinton" Anthonyhcole (11) "It is a matter of respecting the human dignity of our BLP subjects." Casliber (13) "what she chooses to be called when not abbreviating for brevity or convenience" DD2K (15) "...she prefers to be addressed as Hillary Rodham Clinton." User:Justen "The reason each of these discussions end without consensus is because even reliable sources have failed to adopt a single "preference." In that case, we should defer to the subject herself and leave the article where it is (and should be)."

per "subject preference" (NOTE: as opposer Tarc notes, , but this reason is cited so many times it's worth tabulating, but these are not references to title policy, and are arguably JDLI reasons too) #Oppose per WP:TITLECHANGES or some variant of "no change is needed" Andy_Dingley (5) "any issue of commonname is easily dealt with by redirects" Smallbones (7) "per Andy Dingley. What's the problem for the HC folks to just use a redirect? " Tarc (9) Medeis (10) "The redirect exists, no one is confused who reads the article. " Anthonyhcole (11) "A search for either HRC or HC will find this article." KTo288 (12) "None of those voting support are arguing that Hillary Rodham Clinton isn't her name just that it isn't the one they most commonly associate with her, there isn't even the hypothetical case that someone looking for the article will be unable to find it as this is easily and invisibly catered for by redirects." DD2K (15)

per WP:TITLECHANGES or some variant of "no change is needed" #Oppose per WP:Self-published name changes User:Justen

per WP:Self-published name changes #Oppose per interpretation of WP:CONCISENESS as HC would be omitting a family name (Rodham) DD2K (15) "for biographical articles... neither a given name nor a family name is usually omitted or abbreviated for conciseness."

per interpretation of WP:CONCISENESS as HC would be omitting a family name (Rodham) #Oppose (no policy-based reasons given) Technical_13 (6) Mark_Miller (17)

(no policy-based reasons given) NOTE: processed opposers through #17 *В²C I realise that I have made good faith edits within your edit here. In the opener you said "we list" and, in this context, I thought that an edit was OK. Please revert or otherwise modify my adaptations as you see fit. GregKaye 03:24, 1 May 2015 (UTC) Are you kidding? Thanks for pitching in! --В²C ☎ 06:16, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Incredibly biased and should be removed. To take just my own example, it quotes a sentence fragment from my paragraph describing my oppose, and characterizes my entire position by those out-of-context words. B2C is as usual trying to make it seem that opposes are not applying policy, extremely unfairly and inaccurately. Omnedon (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. B2C, the closing panel will fairly weigh the arguments that commentators have made here. You're free to make your own points, but for you as a strong supporter of one side to try to re-cut and re-present what all other editors are asserting is clearly not helping. Make your own statements and others will make theirs. If this does remain, I predict we'll very quickly wind up with two or even more competing parallel "policy/guidline summation" sections... ╠╣uw talk] If this section isn't removed then every interested editor should process the position of all other editors in a similar fashion. Remaining interested editors would then process the bias of each editor during the first processing step to assist us in determining which editors are least biased at processing other editors' positions. But this assessment of ability to process other editors' processing of editor positions would vary from one editor to the next and would require at least several additional rounds of recursive mutual processing before reaching that smallest, innermost, remaining-editor Matryoshka doll of process who would be crowned champion of process and would resemble a tiny baby turned from a single piece of wood. That might be fun! Who's in? Flying Jazz (talk) 15:52, 30 April 2015 (UTC) Omnedon claims his entire position is characterized by out-of-context words. What? No one's entire position is characterized by this section, and there is no attempt to do so. The focus here is on the title policy basis in people's arguments and how many relied on each title policy. We should be able to identify every title policy used and who used each one, no? Anyone who thinks a contribution was based in title policy that has been missed is free to list that title policy and the name of the editor who based their argument/point on that policy. Omnedon, did you cite or infer any other title policy? If so, identify it. If not, what again is your complaint? There should be no argument weighing in any of this analysis. Either people cited (directly or by inference) title policy, or they didn't. If the result appears biased that doesn't mean it is. I will say this, before I started this my impression was that the supporters tended to rely much more on policy than did the opposers. But even I'm surprised by these results. So far at least the opposers have practically nothing with respect to policy basis. No wonder they don't want this kind of analysis exposed. And it is only opposers opposing this section, isn't it? By the way, if you don't think this analysis is fair, and you don't want to contribute to make it fair, you can also do your own analysis, and others are free to comment about how much they think it is or isn't fair. What's the problem? --В²C ☎ 16:59, 30 April 2015 (UTC) I'll give a direct answer to your final question and proceed upwards. "The problem" is that human beings consider it disrespectful when a portion of their words are taken out of the context which suited their desires and placed into another person's context to suit that other person's desires. Of course, you have the freedom to be disrespectful. It's my opinion that many supporters of the move have a deliciously and ridiculously dehumanizing view about the historical role of women changing/not-changing/adding/not-adding their husband's names upon marriage, and to support that view, certain editors here have creating an amusingly misguided analogy to the distinction between the words "yogurt" and "yoghurt." Just as you have the freedom to be disrespectful, opponents also have that same freedom, and certain opponents (not me) will do a much better job at being disrespectful than you did, and they will do a better job at taking your words out of context than you have done. That's because the yogurt-is-to-yoghurt as Hillary Clinton-is-to-Hillary Rodham Clinton analogy is so astonishingly worthy of disrespect in the broader community outside of Wikipedia that it will contribute to a (perhaps well-deserved) recent public impression that the English encyclopedia is run by laughably moronic, over-argumentative, and sexist nitwits. I don't mean to call you or other editors those 