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edit] Should we update this?

— Unsigned, by: 174.90.222.199 / talk / contribs Anitas made a speaking appearance that supposedly deconstructs her harassers arguments ( I say supposedly because I haven't watched the video yet.) Is the page going to be updated to reflect that? Actually, I kinda think the page should be updated in some way, it's looking a little stagnant. I can't really suggest how... It's just that it feels like a lots happened in the meantime and this article doesn't reflect that.

I've watched the video and will try to include something. Zero (talk - contributions) 00:22, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

So Sarkeesian talked about Internet harassment to the UN yesterday, and gators are already mewling about how she's advocating censorship because she considers the perpetual accusations of being a liar being part of her harassment. Any rebuttal to that notion?

The accusations are just another form of self-justification for GamerGaters to spin their own narrative to convince themselves they're doing The Right Thing™. The sad part is that its more likely for people to dismiss Anita Sarkeesian's (or any other woman's) concerns because American culture has a deep unconscious bias about women not being taken seriously, and that men's opinions should be given priority over women's. Withoutaname (talk) 04:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC) Gators is the same.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 04:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC) Is there a video of the engagement she had at the UN? I have the feeling it might be hours long but I'd want to put it on the background for use. Zero (talk - contributions) 18:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC) There's a link on the Gamergate timeline to where it was live streamed and somewhere on that page is the recording.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 20:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC) The UN? How the hell did some two-bit YouTube-video-uploader came to speak before the United Nothing Nudniks Nations? As a fig leaf for having Saudi Arabia in the UNHRC?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ Because idiots yelled at her on the Internet for having opinions while female.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 20:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC) So Anita is the living embodiment of the Streisand Effect and came to all her fame and fortune now not due to her being anything special, butu due to being at the right place at the right time.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ The point of her involvement in what happened at the UN General Assembly was because of the attacks she suffered. Same reason Zoe Quinn was there. It had nothing to do with her criticism of video games...directly.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 21:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC) She also managed to toughen up and speak out about the harassment. If you think about it, and substitute anyone in place of Ms. Sarkeesian, would they have been able to play out the same role? Would they have been invited to the United Nations for a hearing? Withoutaname (talk) 23:01, 26 September 2015 (UTC) Why should I or anyone else give a fuck about that kinda speculations??--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ The only reason she's speaking at a conference about women facing misogynistic verbal abuse online is because she was a victim of misogynistic verbal abuse online and didn't back down. I'm not sure what bullshit you're reaching for Arisboch. I guess this would be Streisand effect on behalf of the primordial ooze that became Gamergate because they never expected a woman (gasp) to stand up to their verbal abuse and cyberstalking.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 23:34, 26 September 2015 (UTC) Yeah, something like that. These GG clowns wanted to push her off the net, but made her richer and famous instead.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ She already had a following in certain circles for her discourse, but I will concede that she would not have become an expert on violent threats faced by women on the Internet had she not become a target of violent threats on the Internet. Her feminist theories can stand on their own as they had already gotten her $50k without these idiots' involvement.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 23:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC) The really big bucks and fame came because of GG.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ Recognition outside of whatever small circle of Internet feminists she was a part of came about because of proto-GG. It diminishes her accomplishments otherwise to suggest that GG is the only reason she's successful.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 23:56, 26 September 2015 (UTC) It's the truth, though. Without GG she'd be just some obscure YouTuber with moderately successful Kicksterter. Through GG, she came even to speak before the fuckin UN.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ If she hadn't been attacked, yeah that would have been the case. She was attacked and she didn't back down and that's what normal people recognize. Stop trying to take away from what she accomplished by saying it's "because of GG" rather than "in spite of GG".— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 00:03, 27 September 2015 (UTC) What she has accomplished? Uploading some boring YouTube videos?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ And nobody would've heard of Malala Yousafzai if she hadn't been shot in the head by the Taliban. But how is a person struggling against major hostile forces earning that person media attention supposed to be a blemish on their achievements? Unless you somehow consider "getting media attention" a more noteworthy achievement than "standing up for what is right". >.> (By that account, isn't Kim Kardashian the greatest person in the world?) 142.124.55.236 (talk) 00:11, 27 September 42015 AQD (UTC) Even more appeals to emotion. How lame.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ I actually wouldn't of heard of her if you didn't just post that. Looked 'em up, I'm glad I am now aware of them. <-𐌈FedoraTippingSkeptic𐌈-> (pretentious, unwarranted self importance) (talk) 00:12, 27 September 2015 (UTC) Glad to be of service. ;) "Of" isn't an auxiliary verb, though. >.> (It's not even a verb.) 142.124.55.236 (talk) 00:15, 27 September 42015 AQD (UTC)

edit] Back on track...

Anyway, the notion that Anita wants to throw her critics in jail is still making the rounds among her detractors, such as this blog post from The Kodu (again). It should be addressed in the Nonsense Claims section. -- Paul S talk ) 04:57, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

"So Sarkeesian talked about Internet harassment to the UN yesterday, and gators are already mewling about how she's advocating censorship because she considers the perpetual accusations of being a liar being part of her harassment. Any rebuttal to that notion?" Well, as usual, it relies on mining a rather vague quote, interpreting it in the worst possible way, & ignoring anything else that was said. Zoe Quinn spoke right before her, & mentioned how people would call her home, employers, etc. That kind of context totally changes the question, because it's not just "some guy called me a liar," it's people actively seeking you out to call you names (including liar) constantly, among everything else they're doing, with stated goals like "driving her off the internet" & "getting her to kill herself," & I can't see how that's anything OTHER than harassment. Also, if the critics had "so many valid points," why would it even bother them if YouTube was thinking of banning ad hominems (which they're not)?67.234.54.93 (talk) 03:51, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

edit] Intellectual Dishonesty

Early in the year the user Serocco made this point about Anita Sarkeesian

Some of the things in particular

1.) arguing that cooperation and peace are inherently "feminine" when in fact societies with men have also had values of peace cooperation and non violence

2.) claiming that the powerpuff girls was anti feminist when in fact the entire point is that real equality means that both men and women get treated equally before the law (i.e. if a woman breaks the law they should get the same punishment as any man) and that the character of Femme Fatale is arguing that because women have had a hard time they should be allowed to have a free pass to commit violent crimes. She seems to be implying that there are no feminists like that all.

3.) Claims that Clarice Starling isn't a feminist character even though she has the most screen time, is the one driving the story arc etc. and that Mattie Ross isn't feminist even though she chooses her own goals, fights her battles, drives the story etc.

4.) Arguing that having any female villains or anti heroes regardless of their motivations and reasons is being sexist (even if the women have sympathetic motivations, genuine character arcs etc).

come across as fundamentally dishonest and sexist. What any woman who is violent or dark is negative from the word go? What about complex female protagonists?

— Unsigned, by: LordYam / talk / contribs 03:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'm readdressing this in a second because it was a pain in the ass to read through seeing as he formatted it horribly and you did as well when you copied it from him. All of this really boils down to how she equates fantasy violence with toxic masculinity. But the real thing to gather here is this article is not about her views, it's about the batshit insane reaction people had to her decision to critique video games. Her opinions are only being presented in contrast to the ridiculous claims people make against her.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 04:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC) That just seems like an excuse to avoid talking about her. She wants her work to be published in universities so that means her work itself needs to be analyzed and if it has flaws to have those flaws laid bare. Saying that "it's not about her" is foolish, since articles about people such as bill maher go into both the absurdities of his views and analyze the nitty gritty. Saying "it's just about the reactions" is cowardly and seems to imply that the site doesn't want to actually address that her views may be flawed in many ways. In that regard people who criticize her are dead on. What's wrong with listing counter arguments to her points or pointing out that she herself is sexist? — Unsigned, by: LordYam / talk / contribs 06:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC) No. She wants her video series to be used as an educational tool for laypeople who don't know shit about feminist critical analysis. We aren't examining her video series. We're discussing the fucked up way people reacted to her announcing her plans for the video series and the constant vitriol sent her way because of that video series. What she says with regards to feminist analysis of video games is not really of any importance to RationalWiki, nor are the nuances of her personal opinions and personal interpretation of feminist theory. What people irrationally say about her is what matters. And also, any possible critique of her work has been made impossible due to this hatred towards her. You and Serocco are just trying to weasel in these miniscule nitpicks you have against her just because it's all that there is. And finally, she isn't sexist. She just hates violence.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 06:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC) And quoting Jim Sterling, "The chance to debate [Anita Sarkeesian] on merit was lost once people started threatening to rape her."— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 07:03, 9 October 2015 (UTC) Excusing people from criticism, 'cause they were the victims of internet harassment? What the fuck kind of bullshit is that???--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ It's the kind of bullshit everyone else gets because none of the garbage that LordYam has brought up is even criticism. The well is poisoned so much that this is the best people can come up with.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 16:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC) *sigh* Aren't there other places on the Internet that you could use to discuss her points? Even the Forum is better for you than this. Withoutaname (talk) 08:44, 9 October 2015 (UTC) Cause the article about Sarkeesian is totally not the place to analyze stuff she said, amirite? --Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ People do, but it just has to be on this page apparently.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 09:04, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

— Unsigned, by: 136.159.49.121 / talk / contribs Does the phrase 'Intellectual Dishonesty' sound really pretentious, or is it just me? Going from the examples, all I'm getting is that she has opinions on feminism I don't entirely agree with, but I'm not sure why that's a massive problem. Besides, they really oversimplify the problems. I'm pretty sure she just listed 'Femme Fatale' as an example of the 'Straw Feminist' that gets used a lot and has the connotation that feminism is unnecessary now (whether or not it actually is). Cooperation and peace as inherently feminine is a reflection of how 'manliness' get connected to violence and toughness and it's opposite is applied to women. And while Mattie Ross is more contentious than Anita make her out to be (although she's not incorrect in saying that she's basically a girl acting like a man in order to be 'tough') Clarice Starling is also a little more contentious than he makes her out to be, particularly with her allegiance with Hannibal Lecter. There's a good roundtable here that highlights the matter: https://www.sarahlawrence.edu/magazine/meaningful-life/campus/under-discussion.html But yeah, not really seeing the deal breaker here. Her interpretations disagree with mine, sure, but that's it.

Even if she isn't entirely wrong on Mattie Ross (I disagree but whatever) her saying that female anti heroes and villains are somehow sexist does create the implication that the only female character she approves of is a saintly and pure archetype even if that's not what she intends. Another main issue is that Femme Fatale is someone saying "I'm oppressed I should have the right to be a criminal" when in fact actual feminists want equal treatment (meaning that if you break the law you don't get a lesser sentence because you're a girl). That was one of the points of the episode and Anita completely overlooks that. Another element is the fact that as the person who ran the kickstarter she would have approved all the comments that appeared, including the hateful ones. That leaves open the chance that maybe she deliberately approved the criticism that was hateful while not approving criticism that was more reasoned. The fact that her movies are the exact same quality after receiving money also implies that she didn't use the money to improve her series despite that being the point. But the final element is the idea that being on the receiving end of death threats means she's above criticism. She wants her work to be used in university classrooms and as academic tools. That means they should be subject to the same scrutiny as any other academic tool; if someone were to find something wrong they should be allowed to say that she's wrong. Just because some people were vile doesn't mean that are work is above reproach. Saying that because someone sent vile death threats her arguments can't be criticized or have problems pointed out is like saying that because the US right wing blatantly overexxagerated the threat of communism that Communism isn't a stupid and ultimately unworkable idea. Sure some of her points may be legitimate but that does not mean that her work is beyond reproach or analysis --LordYam (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)LordYAM LordYam, feminism seeks to change how women are marginalized in society in comparison to men. Basing your arguments against Anita Sarkeesian's opinions based on video she made 4 years ago is poor as hell. People didn't post messages to her on her Kickstarter. They were coming from everywhere else and directed at her, so this comment of yours is coming close to saying "professional victim". And, again, the RationalWiki page on Anita Sarkeesian is not discussing her analytical skills but rather the irrational hate towards her. Do not keep making your same argument predicated on her stance on violent media.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 21:11, 9 October 2015 (UTC) "The RationalWiki page on Anita Sarkeesian is not discussing her analytical skills but rather the irrational hate towards her" is also coming close to saying "professional victim". Ŵ êâŝê î ôîď Methinks it is a Weasel 21:16, 9 October 2015 (UTC) That's how it's been treated long before I ever. The irrational behavior directed at her is what the page is about rather than whatever stances she personally has because critiquing feminist theory isn't something any one of us really has the skill set for. Also LordYam said that she is to blame for being attacked because she didn't properly moderate her Kickstarter comments section.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 01:24, 10 October 2015 (UTC) Anita's problem with Femme Fatale is not that nobody in the world is anything like her, but that she is being portrayed as a typical feminist, and that she's part of a larger pattern of 'straw feminists' in the media. There are over 7 billion people on this planet and you can find someone that will believe in just about anything you can think of; Anita is not saying "no-one in the world acts like this". "She seems to be implying that there are no feminists like that all" is a misrepresentation of her point, which is that the vast majority of feminists are nothing like this. —Bilorv (needs a slap) 21:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand how this Ryulong person keeps saying the page is only about the insane reaction to her rather than her views. Lots of people get insane reactions to the things they say online. Anita is certainly about more than that. There is calm and reasoned criticism against her, but this is ignored and subsumed under batshit insane and therefore not worthy of discussion. That's incredibly lazy and biased. Where the article deigns to discuss such, it's clear no real research is even attempted. Hitman's female characters are nothing but eye candy? Incorrect. Context matters, and if you willfully ignore it how can you call yourself rational? 174.64.1.166 talk ) 04:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Because RationalWiki is not directly covering her views. It's covering people's views of her. Because she's not a radical voice online. People just have irrationally reacted to her decision to talk critically about video games. The whole Hitman situation is just pointless cherrypicking to say "she's wrong about this so she's wrong about everything else". Also these are her opinions. Opinions are not for tearing down. You can have opposing opinions and that doesn't make either yours or hers any less valid. When will Gamergaters realize this? Particularly how she's not advocating for censorship of anything but more varied games about different subjects.— Ryūlóng ( 琉竜 ) 04:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

— Comment made by 66.75.61.201, who may or may not be the same person as LordYam. —Bilorv (needs a slap) 09:32, 7 November 2015 (UTC) Except she also implies that having any female villains or anti heroines is somehow sexist. No matter how complex they are or their motives it's sexist. I'm sorry but that's nonsense of the highest caliber. And the idea that Anita's views can't be ripped apart or critiqued is absurd, not to mention cowardly. LordYam

People can criticize her but that's not what this page is for. And the point is that public debate turns into something to attack her personally with rather than start any sort of actual discussion on feminist theory when applied to video games. The obsession you folks have with wanting to debate this woman's opinions is unhealthy. What she says doesn't have any personal impact on you or anyone else. Her condemnation of Lara Croft's breasts doesn't mean in the next Tomb Raider she'll have undergone a double mastectomy.—Ryulong (talk) 11:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC) "People can criticize her but that's not what this page is for." - Ryulong 'Cause this is the article of praise and glorification of our Holey Saint Anita teh First?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ But... But... someone is WRONG (in other words "has another opinion") on the INTERNET! --Irian (talk) 12:17, 7 November 2015 (UTC) They gotta protect their waifu tiddies and completely fail to understand the difference between the things a government can and can't do and things private entities can and can't do.—Ryulong (talk) 13:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC) If (hypothetically) a private website banned you indefinitely, you wouldn't complain because you understand the difference between "things a government can do and things a private entity can do". Is that right? Sarah (HH) 22:08, 7 November 2015 (UTC) ...Ryulong was pretty clearly talking about Anita's ability to actually ban games, not making an argument that it's only censorship if the government does it. He may or may not be believe that latter claim (which, if so, is bull), but...for fuck's sake, at least try to figure out what people are actually saying.KrytenKoro (talk) 22:19, 7 November 2015 (UTC) I understood what he wrote just fine... maybe you have insight into what he was thinking new-user-who-only-edits-pages-ryulong-also-edits? :) Sarah (HH) 22:42, 7 November 2015 (UTC) No but I know you're thinking I'm being a hypocrite for suggesting that private websites can do whatever the fuck they want without it being called infringement of someone else's rights to free speech by slyly referencing the fact I was banned from Wikipedia. But the problem with your analogy is that I never accused ArbCom of infringing on my right to free speech or that I was censored.—Ryulong (talk) 22:50, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] Why Google linked me to this feminist biased article?

I want to know why. Any user online to reply me?. 179.179.183.253 talk ) 14:12, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Why not? I didn't think GGers cared about her anymore anyway. Shouldn't you be focused on ethics in game journalism?Petey Plane (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2015 (UTC) Why don't you go to Google and whine to them?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋

I am not a gamer and Anita Sarkeesian still relevant because she wants to censor the internet to avoid "online harassment". Everyone whines to Google, even you SJWs. 179.179.183.253 talk ) 15:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Making the case that many online communities breed misogyny in front of a group that has little to no control in the actual content of the intertubes is not trying to "censor the internet." Also, i didn't realize Google forced you to read every page that they link you to.--Petey Plane (talk) 15:19, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

edit] Dear sir or madam

(Who are we kidding, dear sir)Google uses a couple of major algorithms to determine what to link you. The most familiar of which is known as "PageRank". PageRank uses what people link to on the internet in order to determine what pages are relevant for any given search term. In general, this means you got this page because essentially a plurality of people talking about Sarkeesian on the internet think this article is a relevant one. Another major algorithm is called "TrustRank" which google essentially uses to determine how likely a given page is to be loaded with bullshit, by measuring the frequency of untrue (or apparently untrue) statements on a website. This is likely the reason you aren't seeing many pro-gamergate links near the top of your results. There is nothing anyone on this wiki has done to SEO or otherwise cause google to uprank this page. It's just the internet thinking you're full of shit.

edit] Proposed new "Nonsense Claim" to address: "She's a scam artist! She promised us this amount of videos in this amount of time!"

I have a handy rebuttal to make. If people like this, I request that this be added to the article.

Her detractors seem woefully unfamiliar with a whole load of perfectly reasonable arguments about why such funding campaigns for projects tend to arrive late. This is an invaluable article about why this sort of stuff happens: http://money.cnn.com/gallery/technology/2012/12/18/kickstarter-ship-late/index.html . Particularly relevant to Feminist Frequency are the sections within the article entitled "Sheer Scale" and "Changing Scope", which relate to what happens when any Kickstarter Project receives more than its original target goal. Long story short, the people running the Kickstarters that they deliver on wind up needing to expand their projects beyond what was originally intended and making it bigger, which of course leads to delays. As we can see with Tropes vs Women In Video Games, this was quite evidently the case, for a myriad of reasons.

Her critics often focus on the "12 videos/episodes" thing as well, but this amounts to cherry-picking since it ignores other relevant numbers from Sarkeesian's Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games?ref=card . Sarkeesian was initially only going to examine a "handful of examples for each trope" when she started her Kickstarter. But as pointed out in this update https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/1115560 , she now looks through hundreds of games, including referencing "182 games in our coverage of the Damsel in Distress trope alone (and) have also catalogued and documented over 548 examples of the Damsel in Distress throughout the history of video games." Let us repeat this for emphasis: Five Hundred and Forty Eight. Beyond maybe a handful of those examples, the overwhelming majority have not been addressed by her so-called "critics".

Also, her videos were only initially going to be 10-12 minutes long. Now, because of the expansion of the project, it means that of her episodes, "Damsels in Distress" went very nearly 1 hour and 15 minutes, "Ms Male Character" went 25 minutes, "Women as Background Decoration" went just over an hour, "Women As Reward" went just over 42 minutes (includes the special DLC "mini-episode") and "Positive Female Characters in Video Games" is, so far, clocking in at just over 18 minutes, with more videos due to come for that episode. We can also include the smaller videos in the series - "The Legend of the Lost Princess", "25 Invisible Benefits of Gaming While Male", and the "Assassin's Creed: Syndicate" review - that clock in at a combined 15 minutes. So what happens when we do the math for all this? We get, at the time of writing, a total of around 3 hours and 55 minutes (or 235 minutes) of video footage, divided by Anita's initial goal of having videos that lasted 10-12 minutes, then essentially within the series she's produced the equivalent of 19 to 23 videos by the initial standards she set. And of course, that's not even including all the speeches at conferences and television appearances she's done too since she began the Kickstarter:

It's utter insanity on the part of the mob opposing Sarkeesian to think that an absurdly literal reading on how many episodes she needed to have apparently released now is somehow the only thing that matters when determining the value for money her backers have gained from supporting her project, when in reality we would imagine her backers are actually delighted about how much the project expanded, and that Sarkeesian is out there very efficiently raising awareness about the issues of sexism in video games and in the gaming industry, catching the attention and support of high profile people and organisations and especially game developers. And unlike the people that her critics latch onto (Sargon, Thunderf00t, Roguestar, the Sarkeesian Effect creators), Sarkeesian has actually released a financial report for everyone to see, and of course she's also submitted tax forms to the IRS as part of being a non-profit, so it ultimately takes tin-hat conspiracy theories for anyone to believe she's somehow hood-winking the IRS.

And of course, there's the fact that even if one is not a financial backer or in general a supporter of Feminist Frequency, the fact of the matter is that one can still watch their videos for absolutely free on YouTube and there is nothing making them either watch and/or donate to any Feminist Frequency produced video if they want to watch it, and for that matter her videos are also free of advertisements, so there's no need to worry about netting Sarkeesian more money through those means. Whereas if one looks at the recent example of the Sarkeesian Effect, one can see that this "documentary", at the time of writing, exists behind a paywall so you can only watch it if you give Jordan Owen more money. Somewhat ironic and hypocritical considering that documentary's own claims about Anita being a "scam artist", and yet there has not been nearly the backlash towards Jordan Owen and Davis Aurini that Anita has received.

Please let me know what you think, make any edits if necessary, and let's see if we can get this in the main article. Jon91919 talk ) 17:03, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

edit] No Valid Criticism?

edit] A new frontier

Can't men be also victims of sexism?

"There’s no such thing as sexism against men. That's because sexism is prejudice + power. Men are the dominant gender with power in society." https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/533445611543363585?lang=en

At very least indirect victims. But also direct. And *even* from women, I dare to think. I've been a man/male for all my life, and even though I don't think I've personally been a victim of direct sexism, except for being slapped in the face a couple of times even though I didn't do anything, and even though I do think that women will by far be the most common direct victims of sexism, I've never been informed that, merely by being a male, I'm in some sort of club with literal privileges that make me more powerful and therefore "invulnerable" to say, women richer than me, who could be my employers, for example, and act in a way that, if the genders were reversed, would be sexist. Perhaps women also don't have prejudices, I don't know.

Biological denialism

I don't recall exactly in which videos (probably previously the ones on games), but once she said something along the lines of "the myth that men are naturally more strongly built than women", and also something about a "myth" of female praying mantis eating males, which is only sort of a partly correct point -- the rate of male-sexual-partnericide is much higher under the lab. However, it's not because there's no such thing and all females are nice and non-violent or only to the extent that it's egalitarian and not also benevolently sexist, and all animal and plants species also conveniently are biologically wired according to feminist/egalitarian ideals despite of the food chain somehow. Instead what happens is that in nature males find more opportunities to be sort of sneaky and run away from the hungry female, like approaching against the direction of the wind and things like that. I don't know what annoys me more, simplistic evolutionary psychology along the lines of "the 50's American values are really based on the latest science", or the "crying myth" reflex-response to "offensive" scientific findings, even if they happen to actually be lousy work in the end.

edit] Anita's Irony vs Anita's law

I would change this myself but I'm too new and the page is locked. In the synopsis, the second paragraph reads in part:

> This transformation from mild mannered cultural critic to massive target of misogynistic hate gave rise to the term Anita's irony and brought...

It looks like the entry in Feminist internet laws has been renamed to Anita's Law, so the hash link needs updating accordingly.

Good article BTW, Squiggleslash talk ) 18:01, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Done, thanks. I will set you up so you can edit the page. Hold on a second. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 19:15, 5 November 2015 (UTC) Thank you! Squiggleslash (talk) 19:27, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] “Nonsense” Claims Gish Gallop

edit] 6.1 Sexist video games = violent video games trope

show] Claim 6.1. She's claiming that sexist tropes in video games make gamers more sexist, it's just as bullshit as Jack Thompson claiming that violence portrayed in video games makes gamers more violent. // Response: No. Jack Thompson claims that violence in video games (A) actually makes gamers more violent, which studies have disproven. He was all for punishing developers and gamers of violent video games to the point of suggesting that they be (B) charged with murder. Anita on the other hand (C) only goes as far as to say that sexist tropes that exist can be perpetuated in media like video games. Ultimately she is (C) just suggesting that it might be better if video games treat women better. She is (C) by no means trying to restrict developers in their creative freedom, (C) merely hoping to maybe influence their attitudes. Anita does (A) indeed link to a source where it gives a resounding Yes that over sexualized women in the media and undoubtedly games as well, influence men, unlike violence. In the description of her Women as Background Decorations PT1" According to this rebuttal, Jack and Anita say the same things correspondingly: that games actually/indeed (A) make one more violent or sexist respectively. In other words, the criticism is not rebutted at all. Further the segment introduces the hidden assumption that both must be similar (i.e. must demand devs be persecuted) and then uses word trickery to make them seem different again (B vs C) by standard strawmanning. The downplaying of feminist criticism is against the stated aims which are of course to bring about changes, as reflected in Target's decision to remove GTA 5 from their shelves. Aneris ✻ (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

You began them weeks ago. But, for humour value, let's take your 6.1: It's clear you haven't understood that section at all. The error is not about any equivalence between 'Games can make you X' for different X, but in assuming that if it is disproven for X1 (violence) then it must be disproven for all X (sexism, compulsive behaviour, jumping on mushrooms, etc.). In fact, it is proven, not disproven, for X2 (sexism). If she was beating that drum as a hypothetical possibility, then scepticism might be warranted, based on how similar to X1 you considered X2 would be. In the presence of disproof, then the comparisons to Jack Thompson would be warranted. But neither of those is the case - it's proven. Hence your criticism swings and misses completely. Then there's some nonsensical bullshit about a hidden assumption, which in this case is just a fancy way of admitting that you're trying to put words into her mouth because what she actually said doesn't fit your characterisation. Queex chthonic murmurings 15:02, 17 November 2015 (UTC) The hidden assumption are in the article about what consequences should be drawn from the findings that are being asserted. The article portrays Jack Thompson as wanting to persecute devs, and then contrast this with Anita Sarkeesian who "just/merely" likes to point things out. But is this even the criticism? That's a strawman. The criticism is that people claim video games have harmful effects on consumers. In this regard Thompson and Sarkeesian are similar, case closed. If it the dispute that one thing doesn't have an effect (violence) but the other does (sexism), then THIS claim must be addressed and Jack Thompson is irrelevant. Aneris ✻ (talk) 16:07, 17 November 2015 (UTC) Bloody hell, even when the point is hammered home you miss it completely. "If it the dispute that one thing doesn't have an effect (violence) but the other does (sexism), then THIS claim must be addressed " It has been addressed - that's what the studies show. Violence no (although the jury is still out on aggression), attitudes to sex and gender, yes. Case closed. The reason it is a false comparison is because of that difference in whether science backs up their claim. Fuck me, you're argument is a mess. Queex chthonic murmurings 19:08, 17 November 2015 (UTC) That's not the dispute. :Rolleyes: The article makes claims about the parallels between Thompson and Sarkeesian which are dubious, not the claim that sexist video games make people sexist (which may or may not be true, I didn't bother with that). Aneris ✻ (talk) 20:49, 17 November 2015 (UTC) ...The science is the reason why the comparison is faulty. How can you not see that? Queex chthonic murmurings 20:51, 17 November 2015 (UTC) Look. If that was the message, which it is not, the article would state: "A study by so-and-so shows[1] this and this, by contrast a link between games and violence could not be established". Sprinkle in Jack and Anita, Done. It's anyway a bullshit inference to assume that one thing that doesn't carry over automatically means that nothing carries over. This is also obviously (and trivially) false. You don't need studies for that. Maybe it's atrocious writing that the comparison is made, and the article then says "No" as if Anita Sarkeesian does not assert "that sexist tropes in video games make gamers more sexist" which she obviously does. And she obviously also does appear like a Jack Thompson style character who makes structurally similar points. You can't go in with "No". The article then goes onto a long tangent and spends most space with the alleged consequences from the findings, which are -- as written above -- based on strawmanning and unique motte-and-bailey doctrines (i.e. advocating for social justice and change, but then tactically pretending that no consequences are intended, which is just disingenious). Aneris ✻ (talk) 04:48, 18 November 2015 (UTC) Jack Thompson wanted to enforce legislation to ban video games like GTA and such despite the studies that point out how violence in video games does not cause people to become more violent (it increases their aggression but that's something else entirely). Meanwhile, Anita Sarkeesian cites multiple studies that show sexist portrayals in media reinforce sexist ideas in those who consume the media and at no point does she ever discuss wanting to push legislation that would ban video games featuring sexist depictions of female characters. Stop being full of bullshit.—Ryulong (talk) 04:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

┌ ──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── ┘ Here's a handy cut-out-and-keep comparison chart:

Jack Thompson Anita Sarkeesian Claims that games can influence behaviour Y Y Claims that that has caused and is causing an epidemic of criminality Y N Wants to hold devs criminally responsible for crimes committed by gamers Y N Wants to restrict the sale of games Y N Has claims backed up by science N Y

obviously (and trivially) false." It would be a bullshit inference, so it's a good job I didn't make it, then. I even said that, absent of contrary evidence, you can make a case for the conclusion to carry over. But what GG advocates have done is try to muddy the waters by pretending that part of the evidence doesn't exist, in order to fall back on that weak inference. The only reason to make that comparison between JT and AS is in order to tar AS with the same brush, to make the implication that her claims concerning behaviour should be dismissed as JT's are. The moment someone raises the spectre of the contradictory evidence, if they don't try to fight over the validity of the research (often by You're showing, yet again, that you struggle to read for comprehension. "It's anyway a bullshit inference to assume that one thing that doesn't carry over automatically means that nothing carries over. This is also(and trivially) false." It would be a bullshit inference, so it's a good job I didn't make it, then. I even said that, absent of contrary evidence, you can make a case for the conclusion to carry over. But what GG advocates have done is try to muddy the waters by pretending that part of the evidence doesn't exist, in order to fall back on that weak inference. Thereason to make that comparison between JT and AS is in order to tar AS with the same brush, to make the implication that her claims concerning behaviour should be dismissed as JT's are. The moment someone raises the spectre of the contradictory evidence, if they don't try to fight over the validity of the research (often by attacking social science in general, which is a curious tack to take when the exculpatory evidence for violence that they rely on comes from the same field), they try to argue for a weaker comparison- i.e. perform the same motte and bailey manoeuvre that you're performing now. Queex chthonic murmurings 11:32, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh lookee, lookee, when Aneris decided to quote from the section of the article about the comparison between Sarkeesian and Thompson, he conveniently decided to omit the entire parts about:

The academic sources Anita keeps in the transcript for her video that more than back up her point. The fact that at no point during E3 2015 did any of the Feminist Frequency team advocate for banning video games, despite the bullshit that their detractors would have people believe. The fact that literally all her statement proves is (with some exceptions like Half Life 2 and Mirror's Edge) she's not that keen on "violent video games".

But nooooo, no quote-mining on Aneris's part. No siree! Jon91919 talk ) 11:40, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

✻ Why would I, since I don't dispute these things? By the way it's fairly easy to either abstracize or specify so that the right amount of comparison is achieved for one's argument. I could claim my glass of water is not all like yours, because my molecule arrangement is very different. Taking your example "Claims that that has caused and is causing an epidemic of criminality". She does argue that media perpetuate or reinforce harmful tendencies in society, patriarchy and all that and there is of course the "rape culture" idea. You can of course play up JT on one side, and pretend feminists do their activism just for fun and are "merely" saying, but that's obviously false. Aneris ✻ (talk) 17:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC) Because the crux of your argument here is that somehow Thompson and Sarkeesian are comparable in their actions when he wanted to ban certain video games because he thought they caused violence which was based on no scientific evidence supporting while she is just critiquing them and pointing out research which says sexism in the media perpetuates sexism in society and it'd be better if there was more media that wasn't sexist. "Both of them say things about video games I don't like" isn't a venn diagram worth discussing in the real world.—Ryulong (talk) 03:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC) Which is again fallacious, as usual. The point is not at all that they "say things about video games I don't like" because I restate for the n-th time: I agree that certain games culture is sexist, and DON'T dispute the research. You are simply such ideologically blinded that you cannot grasp simple ideas when they don't align with your SJ bot program. Aneris ✻ (talk) 03:18, 20 November 2015 (UTC) What the fuck are you trying to accomplish then? That it's perfectly fine to compare a disbarred lawyer who tried to legislate censorship of video games with a woman who you constantly conflate with Nazi German censorship programs when she's not advocating for anything resembling censorship?—Ryulong (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] 6.4 Hitman: Absolution

show] Claim 6.4: She lied about Hitman: Absolution. // Response: On the surface this sounds like a point until you remember the name of the video is "Women as Background Decoration.” In this respect, the women in this scene are portrayed as eye candy and toys but nothing else (in other words, why have them there at all?). The rendering of the claim “lied about Hitman” in some most unspecific way gives the ideologue in this article the weasel room to write anything as a seeming rebuttal. In truth, what she does in her video is complete stagily propaganda. First off, characters in works of fiction are always objects and always “used” by authors and designers to enrich their media for some purpose. The “decoration” is called “extra” in film, and added to make the scene look plausible. Crowds and unimportant characters give texture in books, and of course they also populate levels as NPCs (non-player-characters). It's hardly possible to describe in words just how batshit crazy her portrayal is. In the thousands of years of human arts and traditions, no single fictional character ever had agency. But Sarkeesian does “entartete Kunst”, puts her focus onto a highly staged scene with mangled unconcious dancers, dragged out for emotional effect, as if this was representative of the game, or as if characters in the background were a unique transgression of decency. The game in question is a sandbox style game with a large variety of characters (anything from chinese cooks to greasers), and all of them can be technically treated that way. NPCs populate all scenes and their purpose is as eye witnesses the player must avoid while doing the job as a stealthy hitman. On the chinese market, there are customers, vendors, cooks. In the night club, there are visitors, dancers, bouncers and the like. The incentive structures are designed in such a way that involving NPCs is penalized, even when some negative consequences (point loss) can be recouped – by hiding the unconcious characters. She later defends her usage that the game systems were that way, which is trivially true, but Charles Darwin also literally wrote that he found it “absurd in the highest possible degree” that the eye could evolve. We know that this doesn't tell the whole story. Aneris ✻ (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Debunked this garbage with the latest edit to that section. Jon91919 (talk) 21:10, 17 November 2015 (UTC) You didn't. Aneris ✻ (talk) 04:30, 18 November 2015 (UTC) She made a whole fucking talk about all of the bullshit claims you've made about her Hitman critiques. The point is that here it's a strip club and the female characters in question are there to titillate even though they can also be killed by the player.—Ryulong (talk) 04:50, 18 November 2015 (UTC) Sorry, but merely saying "you didn't" doesn't work, and reeks of the stench of trolling. Either provide actual details, regardless of how shit your argument will prove to be, or fuck off out of this site. Jon91919 (talk) 08:08, 18 November 2015 (UTC) Ok, I debunked your claims with my arguments. And no, Anita Sarkeesian and the article argue about characters as background decoration, or do they not? And what are extras in film then? Or virtually every character that is placed in fiction for some purpose? How are they not objects, or merely background decoration? If her argument was that you can't show scantly clad characters in that fashion, you must make that argument. She also still uses a sandbox to purposefully attack specific characters, drag them around for effect, when this is not representative of the game at all. In reality, there's all sorts of things wrong with the art direction of Hitman Absolution--they do a wannabe Taratino and work with exploitation tropes which are sexist, so you don't need to be disingenious and do entartete Kunst. Her explanations she later offered are also complete hogwash, too. She makes the comparison to GTA where one steals cars and is allegedly penalized, which isn't true. It's a core game feature, and central to mission, where you occasional have to rid police chasers. Assaulting scantly clad dancers and dragging them around is not what you routinely do in Hitman, nor meant to do. It's all explained above. But all you apologist know is thought terminating clichés and authoritarian deference Aneris ✻ (talk) 17:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC) Her argument is that the women in the scene are exclusively there because their scantily clad, and also there's the option of killing them or knocking them out to advance the level just like you totally have the option to shoot every fucking civilian you can in GTA and then fight off the ensuing cops and military vehicles they send your way to apprehend you. Also stop fucking comparing her to the Nazis with your completely ridiculous accusations of her applying "degenerate art".—Ryulong (talk) 03:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC) Also if you actually looked at any citation you see she goes into detail of how her point is that the game's developers intentionally included an option to attack the stripper characters, just like every other characer in the game. Their presence is not integral to the game's story. That's how they're background decoration. They solely exist in the framework of the game for the sake of being a pair of digital tits.—Ryulong (talk) 05:08, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] 6.5 Stealing Let's Play footage

show] Claim 6.5. Stealing Let's Play footage Claim: She stole Let's Play footage from gamers. // Response: Sarkeesian has used excerpts from Let's Play videos (in-game video footage recorded and published by gamers) in her videos to illustrate the games she is talking about. Many of her critics have argued that Sarkeesian "stole" this footage from the gamers who originally posted it, by failing to give them attribution, and deceptively presents it as her own footage of playing the games herself. Several things are wrong with this argument. Firstly, game footage is very widely used in media when discussing a video game, for example in TV news reports and documentaries, and nowhere is it implied (in these contexts or in Sarkeesian's videos) that the person talking about the game must also be the person playing the game in the recorded footage. Secondly, the fact that she didn't personally record footage of herself playing these games is irrelevant to any points she makes about the games' content. The response doesn't correspond with what it tries to rebut and shows once more that SJWs don't understand that words aren't just abstract actions but describe some underlying reality. She did use “let's plays” without attribution; which is either true, or false. If this is true, then you can argue whether it's fair to call it “stealing”. But again, the authors would first need to produce credible sources that call it “stealing” and then have to rebut word choices. That she took material recorded and edited by other people is yet again not a “nonsense claim made against her”. The RationalWiki makes an even more bizarre statement: Article: “The notion suggested by many Gamergaters that Let's Play footage "belongs" (either morally or legally) to the player who records it rather than the company who created and published the game is highly dubious, and Sarkeesian's fair use rationale is actually a lot more defensible than the players who originally made the Let's Play videos — something which could almost certainly be interpreted as copyright infringement but is (largely) tolerated by the game industry as a part of online gamer culture.” That's not even Pretzel Logic, that's Klein-Bottle-Logic. When Sarkeesian re-uses “copyright infringing” material taken from another person, it's suddenly “defensible”? What the Heck. First of all, media companies seek out “let's play” makers and hope they cover their games! Secondly, read “Convergence Culture” or learn about media rights, and the whole transmedia business of mixing and appropriating content, which is an ongoing field of research where certainly more is known than the batshit drivel presented in this article. The general outline is this: companies want fan participation. They want that people immerse themselves in the products and worlds/universes within their francises. But, at the same time, they want to keep control over the direction of the appropriation, where conflicts and also legal disputes enter the stage. However, at no point can you simply take someone elses' footage and present it as if you recorded it on your own (which is what Sarkeesian did). Fair Use and common practices also suggest that it must be apparent from the context that the material shown is commented upon: but she does not comment on the recording, playing and editing done by a Let's Play content creator (that's the frequent inability of SJWs to identify higher order discourse). Aneris ✻ (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Your assertion that her use of these videos is not fair use because she's commenting on the content of the videos rather than the alleged work put into editing the videos by the original uploader is weak as hell and irrelevant.—Ryulong (talk) 04:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] 6.5b Stealing Artwork

show] Claim (*new*) Anita Sarkeesian took fan-art to furbish her advertising material. DailyDot SJW spells out why this should fall to the wayside: “you might not want to give ammunition to your enemies”, i.e. the usual transparent attitude of people who don't care about what's true and use even this instance to make it about “an onslaught of death threats, online abuse, and harassment” as the propagandist Aja Romano claims. End justifies the means and all. Still, you can turn and twist, and whine as you want. She took someone else's fanart for a for-profit project (she did collect alot of money) and used it as a cover image. That's not fair use as she does not comment on the image but uses it as marketing material. Primary Source: http://cowkitty.net/post/78808973663/you-stole-my-artwork-an-open-letter-to-anita Random Secondary Sources: http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/anita-sarkeesian-fanart-plagiarism-theft/

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/132778-Anita-Sarkeesian-Stole-my-Artwork-Claims-Blogger Let the mental gymnastics commence! Aneris ✻ talk ) 14:42, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] Video games ARE art

[1] Yes. But what is the role of the player in realizing that art? In my mind I'm thinking this somewhat parallels a relationship I'm more familiar with; to quote a wise man:

Nothing I have written here is meant to imply that the composer who conducts has nothing to learn from the noncomposer-conductor who performs his work. On the contrary! It is not easy, especially when a work is new, for a creator to have sufficient perspective to know in every respect how his composition should be interpreted. A conductor of instinct can suggest tempi adjustments, especially in transitional passages; better balances in orchestral textures; more precision in metronome markings -- always a major hazard for the composer -- and even, at times, changes in emotional inflection of a work. Conductors may play a role somewhat similar to that of a stage director with a playwright or a sympathetic editor with the author of a book. Obviously there is more than one way to read the lines of a play and more than one way to interpret a musical composition. A conductor, whoever he may be, understands a work through his own temperament, background and training. Any composer would do well to keep an open mind when listening to a gifted performer "reading" his work.

Walker Walker Walker 21:11, 17 November 2015 (UTC) 21:11, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] Anita Sarkeesian's blatant sexism

I'd be interested to see how this extremely biased wiki is going to get around this, but I assume it'll be with the same sociologically and linguistically inaccurate 'explanation' shown in the above link. But my main question is: If Sarkeesian's ignorance and sexism isn't relevant to this article, how come it is with anti-SJWs? If you're going to use satire as an excuse to shield morally corrupt people, at least be a little more creative about it. Now, go ahead and call me a misogynist (I'm a woman, but don't let that stop you) instead of addressing my main arguments.

Or make me and everyone else reading this very happy and try to claim that whole 'sexism is power + prejudice' argument, which, no matter how many times you ban me, won't work. See, language is a social construct. Words only mean what the majority of the population thinks they mean. If I asked 100 people (outside of a college campus) if you can be sexist towards men, I promise you that the majority of them would say you can. Therefore, by definition, that is what the word means, full stop. Claiming a small group's subjective interpretation of a word is more valid than the majority of the population's collective interpretation of a word just shows you own bias and ignorance.

If this wiki had any shred of decency or non-bias, it'd be talking about the inappropriate things Sarkeesian has done, instead of hiding behind the fact that she's been harassed. Newsflash: Being harassed online doesn't mean you have the moral right to by a sexist- sorry, 'prejudiced' asshole. <3 124.176.156.17 talk ) 11:43, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, a stipulative definition must understood as such. In this case, it's rather silly, because her definition of choice lacks the utility of the common definition, but I can at most file this under wrong in its definitions, not sexist. Well, and guilty of ignoring some of the very few societies in the world where her factual statement is wrong. That's the more serious error. Walker Walker Walker 11:49, 30 November 2015 (UTC) And you must remember to apply the same definition throughout: because sexism is defined as not merely a prejudice, she isn't saying one cannot be prejudiced against men, or that one can't mistreat men, c. c. That also would be a grave error - but it isn't the one committed. Walker Walker Walker 11:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC) AND ANOTHER THING: how is there an objective, only correct definition of a word if language is strictly, as you say, a social construct? By the test you propose, wouldn't all shifts of definition now accepted as valid have been errors all the way up until they reached majority acceptance? Walker Walker Walker 11:58, 30 November 2015 (UTC) It's an academic definition that's gaining coin. Like all academic definitions, it only has utility within the framework in which it's meant to be used. On the other hand, pushing for a greater understanding of what that definition implies is a strong way of ramming home the point that the consequences of (colloquial) sexism are very different depending on which way it's facing. Criticising her for making that point in a tweet, where you can't include the proper caveats and explanation, is fair but it's hardly a serious error. Calling what she said 'sexism', however, is gratuitously idiotic. The only ignorance revealed here, 124, is your own. Also, read up on Argumentum ad dictionarium. Queex chthonic murmurings 12:03, 30 November 2015 (UTC) You didn't address my main points. I never said Sarkeesian claimed you can't be prejudiced towards men; I said she claimed you can't be sexist towards them. Worse still, she presented her subjective (and heavily disputed) definition of a word as completely objective. My main argument is that her opinion that men can't face systemic oppression at all is, in itself, sexist and ignorant. We may live in a society dominated by rich, powerful men, but that doesn't mean poor, powerless men can't experience oppression by those same people too. To state that male victims can't face oppression because they have the same gender as their oppressors is extremely sexist and ignorant. And no, before anyone asks, I'm not an MRA. I must say though, if your response to anyone who expresses concerns for men and doesn't kiss the feet of morally corrupt women is, "You're an MRA!" that might show how little rationality mainstream feminism has nowadays.

As a woman, I know what sexism feels like. In fact, only last weekend, my two friends and I were sexually harassed by a drunken old man. Sarkeesian has obviously faced harassment from sick people as well, although the fact that she compares death and rape threats to people saying she's a liar and she sucks doesn't really help her much. Regardless, I want the assholes who threatened her to be arrested and face punishment for what they did, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be critical of Sarkeesian, or that I'm not going to get annoyed when she calls everyone who refutes her misogynistic harassers.

And sorry, guys, but you either misunderstood or didn't want to understand my statements about language. I never even mentioned dictionaries, so I'm not sure why they were brought up. I mentioned PEOPLE. Dictionaries are merely tools created by people to monitor the most recent developments in language. While they're more reliable than some teenager on tumblr, they're still not completely indisputable. Language is a social construct, so society defines it. Sure, you can come up with your own interpretations of words if you want, but if no one else agrees with them, you'll only be derailing the conversation when you use them.

The only people who use the 'you can't be sexist towards men' argument are people who don't want to acknowledge that men AND women have problems in this society. For every horrible thing that happens only or mostly to women, I can name you something that happens only or mostly to men. Instead of dehumanizing one side, why don't we work together in getting morally corrupt sociopaths out of power? And I'm sorry, but if your defense of disputed definitions is, "Well, a few rich, far-left teachers do it," then that's pretty sad. I mean, these are the sort of people you're talking about, right? Not really people I'd want to trust important matters with, to be honest. Academia's definition is still widely disputed (as it should be), which means it is 'incorrect' for all intents and purposes. If a word you're using is going to make at least 9 out of 10 people do a doubletake and misinterpret your meaning, then it's time to rethink your use of the word instead of trying to force it on everyone else.

Also, since neither of you addressed this the first time I asked: On this website, why is it okay to mock assholes who disagree with your political beliefs but not okay to mock assholes who don't? That seems extremely biased, honestly, and I'd like you to address that concern directly.124.176.156.17 (talk) 13:05, 30 November 2015 (UTC) Note that she didn't say men cannot face systemic oppression? You're inserting !your words into her mouth. Try harder. Walker Walker Walker 13:13, 30 November 2015 (UTC) If you think the advocates for Power+Prejudice are exclusively 'rich', you are moron. If you think they are 'far left', you are a moron. I think you've tipped your own hand, there. And your dictionary error is in asserting 'Definition A for a word exists, therefore Definition B cannot exist', which a quick trip to the OED page for 'so' would reveal to be self-evidently nonsense. "The only people who use the 'you can't be sexist towards men' argument are people who don't want to acknowledge that men AND women have problems in this society." And yet, every single person I've heard espouse 'you can't be X towards Y' expressly acknowledges that both Y and Z face problems; they're merely pointing out that the situation is not symmetric. So on that point you're either crushingly ill-informed or flat-out lying. Queex chthonic murmurings 13:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC) Wow, it must have taken a lot of reads and rereads of my comment before you could find something to cling onto. Well done. If you want to be overly pretty, you're right that Sarkeesian didn't literally say men can't face systemic oppression. However, when your side argues that men can't face sexism, you always rationalize it with, "Sexism and systemic sexism are different." So, if your argument is that Sarkeesian didn't even bother to clarify her heavily disputed, bigoted re-interpretation of a word with 'systemic,' like some of the more self-conscious people in her group do, you're absolutely right. ...You do realize that this doesn't help your argument at all, right? Also, could you please respond to my other points? This is how discussions work.

"If you think differently than me, you are a moron." Wow. Flawless debating skills there, buddy. Have you considered joining a college debating team? If you're a woman, you'll be treated like an inferior weakling who can't even hold her own in discussions. Personally, I find that very misogynistic, but that's probably because I'm actually talented and intelligent, and so don't need to use my gender to help me in life. <3

Oh, I'm not saying the definition can't exist. I'm just saying that if you use a heavily disputed definition for a word, you're going to be derailing a lot of conversations. Unfortunately, society at large doesn't seem interested in playing along with your childish games. So, unless you want to confuse and annoy a lot of people, you're going to have to start using 'sexist' the way most people use it. Or you can keep whining until the people in higher power fix your problems for you. Either or.

And actually, men can be systemically oppressed. If the accepted definition of systemic oppression is 'oppression by those in higher power,' that is. I'd argue that being denied access to one's kids, being arrested as the instigator in domestic abuse cases even if you're the victim, still being required to sign up for the draft, and being sentenced to shittier prisons for longer than a women are for the same crime is pretty systemic. Then again, I'm not a man-hating little snowflake.

Are you going to address all my points, BTW, or are you just going to hope the ones you can't address will go away if you focus on the ones (you think) you can address? Just curious.124.176.156.17 (talk) 13:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC) She defined it up front; that is the clarification you (wrongly) demand. You are a moron. It's not too hard to see. You are not at liberty to demand people use your preferred definition; ironically enough, doing so serves only to derail discussions... the exact same thing you're accusing others of. How quaint. I'm glad you agree. Nobody but you finds your arguments "unaddressed" at all. Reading. It helps. Walker Walker Walker 13:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC) (EC) You don't have any points that haven't already been refuted here, there and everywhere. PRATT. ""If you think differently than me, you are a moron." Wow. Flawless debating skills there, buddy." No, I'm saying that your characterisation of people that think differently to you is hilariously inaccurate and so at odds with reality that it doesn't even merit further discussion. Your use of 'far left' and 'rich' is a transparent attempt to paint 'people who think differently to you' as either political extremists or coddled and unworldly. Either you can't see how wayward your characterisation is (and hence you're a moron) or you think that you'll be able to slip that mischaracterisation into the discussion without anyone noticing (and hence you're a moron). "So, unless you want to confuse and annoy a lot of people, you're going to have to start using 'sexist' the way most people use it." or, you know, use that other definition in the context it was intended for - academic discussion of prejudice, like, I don't know, a feminist pop-culture video series. Maybe someone should start a kickstarter for such a thing. "And actually, men can be systemically oppressed." As Sarkeesian has said, on many occasions. As has just about any feminist commentator. What was your point, again? "Then again, I'm not a man-hating little snowflake." Aw, bless, it's trying to be snarky! Keep trying, me bab. You'll get there. Queex chthonic murmurings 14:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC) Re men "being denied access to one's kids, being arrested as the instigator in domestic abuse cases even if you're the victim, still being required to sign up for the draft, and being sentenced to shittier prisons for longer than a women are for the same crime": these are all longstanding patriarchal double standards based on the different roles & characteristics attributed to men & women in a patriarchal society. They're situations where (individually) men suffer because of society's expectation, but this doesn't make them "sexism against men" since they boil down to patriarchal notions of men as the doers within society and women as passive & subservient. ₩ €₳ $ € £ΘĪÐ Methinks it is a Weasel 19:46, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] Nonsense Claims Addendum

Okay, here's a try: "Anita defines sexism as systemic oppression as opposed to a simple prejudice against men. What is there not to get?" Zero (talk - contributions) 21:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

edit] Yes, I would like some sources

That "it's bullshit" is not a reason not to source anything. Carpetsmoker talk ) 09:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

The things ouy want citations for are strawmen arguments and our own attempts at debunking those strawman arguments, and in many cases said argument is included in the references that come after it.—Ryulong (talk) 09:52, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Sigh. Why is it that every time I do some cleanup (this time in unreferenced Category:Living people pages) no one complains, except you on one of your RBPs (Ryulong Blessed Pages™)? Just add a small reference, "here are some people who claimed this". Very little trouble at all. Carpetsmoker (talk) 10:23, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Because they're paraphrases of hundreds of angry tweets and hour long YouTube videos made to attack her. You must be insane if you think anyone should find citations that will inevitably say "ANITA JEWKEESIAN IS A SCAM ARTIST" just to point out that people accuse her of being a scam artist.—Ryulong (talk) 10:25, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Even though this petition is hilarious.—Ryulong (talk) 10:29, 2 December 2015 (UTC) (ec)It's not insane. How do I, as a reader, know these accusations are accurately represented or even real? Again, it's a very easy thing to do to link to that hour-long YouTube video. Carpetsmoker (talk) 10:31, 2 December 2015 (UTC) They're hyperbole. And the fact that there are sources following the statements that specifically debunk them it no one should be required to cite that again. It's already cited (like the Joss Whedon one), but you didn't look hard enough.—Ryulong (talk) 10:32, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Carpetsmoker, the only reasonable and rational person in the room, again. — Aneris ✻ (talk) 11:50, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Something that Aneris won't ever have to worry about being called. Typhoon (talk) 13:41, 2 December 2015 (UTC) Most of these citations could have come directly from you, TBH.—Ryulong (talk) 22:58, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

edit] Doom 4 and Fallout 4

— Unsigned, by: 109.77.247.252 / talk / contribs The article says this to defend Anitas criticisms: "She's expressed similar opinions with other violent media, saying she didn't find Mad Max: Fury Road a feminist masterpiece which others disagreed with, but there's no MadMaxGate out to get her. Imagine that." Can you tell me if, when the first Mad Max movie was released, was there an organised campaign to get the movie banned, along with people saying that anyone who enjoyed the movie was a dangerous psycho who might snap and kill people? Because thats what happened when the firsst Doom was released. Maybe we should take context into account here to understand why this is raising red flags for gamers.

edit] "Prejudice plus power" ist verboten?

The missionality of this page is built around her harassment, thus adding any criticism to her views would be seen as justifying it. Quite simply, the sheer volume of the harrassment unjustly heaped onto her has made her into a Sacred Cow who must be defended, even though some of what she says is pretty bullshit and fallacious.Keter (talk) 01:22, 26 December 2015 (UTC) I am unsure if you're serious or sarcastic? At any rate, surely we can defend her when she's correct, strongly condemn her harassment, and criticise her when she's wrong, all at the same time. We do so for a number of other people (Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, many more). Carpetsmoker (talk) 01:29, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

"The missionality of this page is built around her harassment." No, that's a stupid canard promoted by Ryulong. "A Sacred Cow who must be defended." That's simply moronic. She is relevant to RW's missions because of the focus of her work - i.e. authoritarianism, crank ideas & how they are handled in the media. Legitimate criticism is germaine in the article, but when it's a load of ignorant what-about-the-menz mansplaining, we can do without it. No, that's a stupid canard promoted by Ryulong.That's simply moronic. She is relevant to RW's missions because of the focus of her work - i.e. authoritarianism, crank ideas & how they are handled in the media. Legitimate criticism is germaine in the article, but when it's a load of ignorant what-about-the-menz mansplaining, we can do without it. W ěǎšě ǐ ǒǐď Methinks it is a Weasel 01:49, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Carpetsmoker, I made my point clear in the other section higher up on the page. Sarkeesian's definition of sexism covering systemic/institutionalized is an irrelevant topic. She did not invent this "prejudice plus power" concept. She is merely explaining it and the concept of privilege. The only reason we should include anything about this concept if it is part of a "Nonsense claims often made against her" section (which FCP changed to "Illegitimate criticisms") to debunk claims that people insist she has said men can't experience sexism. Weaseloid, the point has been made time and time again, and not solely by myself, that discussion of Sarkeesian on RationalWiki concerns the completely irrational things done to her and said about her rather than any sort of critique of her body of work (which no one has yet to properly do). I don't know where you're pulling "authoritarianism, crank ideas & how they are handled in the media" from. She's not seeking to ban video games (despite what people insist) so discussion of her doesn't concern "authoritarianism" and feminist theory (particularly the bland Women's Studies 101 version she advocates in her video series) isn't a "crank idea". The videos so incredibly benign and inoffensive that it took a special kind of person (of the crocodilian variety) to take such massive offense at the thought that a woman is calling their favorite toys less than perfect to result in everything that has happened since 2012. The only criticism her videos should properly face are differences in opinion in her approach to the analyses and these don't need to be covered on RationalWiki even if they could be found because it's completely irrelevant to discuss differences in opinion on how to interpret the stories of video games on this project.—Ryulong (talk) 05:18, 26 December 2015 (UTC) "She did not invent this "prejudice plus power" concept." -> Okay. So? She used it. Ray Comfort didn't invent creationism or many of the arguments he uses. "debunk claims that people insist she has said men can't experience sexism. " -> It says quite clearly, "There’s no such thing as sexism against men"... Carpetsmoker (talk) 05:29, 26 December 2015 (UTC) I'm entirely unconvinced this counts as a "legitimate criticism" and suspect you're freely mixing academic jargon and colloquial meanings of words as if they're the same, then being struck by the revelatory nature of your own confusion - David Gerard (talk) 11:21, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Pretty much what David said. Too much outrage from people that fail to understand the context of a single tweet. Typhoon (talk) 16:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC) Well, perhaps making blanket statements on a medium which only allows short messages is not a good idea in the first place, hm? At any rate, our Prejudice plus power page seems fairly accurate at describing various usages of terms like "Femenism" and "Racism", and recognizes that there are various definitions going around. Sarkeesian single-handedly redefining the term to One True Meaning™ as she did in the tweet is, simply put, wrong. If she wanted to use more context, she should have used a medium which allows this. Perhaps she nuanced her statement in later tweets? I tried looking this up, but I can only view a single tweet, not "all tweets starting with this one" (or, at least, I can't figure out how). Carpetsmoker (talk) 16:52, 26 December 2015 (UTC) David, you can be insufferably arrogant and popmpous. Carpetsmoker is a worthy contributor -- I don't always agree with him, but I'd never carry on like that.---Mona- (talk) 16:57, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

entirely independent of the vile harassment she received. What more needs be said? (talk/ She supports prejudice + power. Prejudice + power has some flaws. This appears to be a legitimate criticism. The truth or falsity of her social criticisms areindependent of the vile harassment she received. What more needs be said? FU22YC47P07470 stalk ) 18:40, 26 December 2015 (UTC)