The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This was a lengthy RfC and took quite some reading. Thank you for your patience in awaiting a close. First of all, thanks are due to the initiators for getting the discussion underway; it was a discussion that needed to be had at some point and starting with a properly structured RfC gives us the best chance of establishing a consensus and making the best use of the time that the hundreds of participants have invested. I should also thank all the participants, especially those who provide insightful rationales and those who do not yet meet the criteria for 'extend confirmed', who brought a different perspective that would otherwise have been easy to overlook.

To business. Let me fist state the obvious. Of the three options presented here, option C is by far and away the most popular. While closing discussions is not merely a matter of counting heads, administrators are not entitled to a supervote and cannot ignore such a large groundswell of opinion. Therefore, I find that there is a consensus for option C:

Option C: Allow use to combat any form of disruption (such as vandalism, edit wars, etc.) on any topic, given that semi-protection has proven to be ineffective. Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee.

This is borne out not just by the number of participants supporting option C (though it is worth noting that almost twice as many people supported option C as supported option A and B combined), but by the detailed rationales that many of the participants left, and it was these—rather than drive-by or "pile-on" votes—to which I paid particular attention.

The obvious aside, the job of a discussion closer is to sum up the discussion, to pick out common themes, and to help provide recommendations based on those for further refinement or to bring the issue to a final conclusion. So, first, there was a common feeling—or perhaps more an acknowledgement in some cases—among most participants that there are certain situations in which semi-protection is simply inadequate to protect the encyclopaedia from harm from anybody sufficiently determined, and that full protection is too blunt an instrument, and therefore we (the community, through our elected administrators) need to be able to use the new "extended confirmed protection" in at least some circumstances. I acknowledge that there is a principled minority who would rather this new level of protection did not exist or was not used at all; they have conducted themselves honourably, but as I understand it such discussion is outwith the scope of this RfC: the deed is done and we are here to decide under what circumstances admins should be using the new protection level. Despite the overwhelming support for option C, many editors expressed reservations about it being used flippantly and tempered their comments with caveats like "extremely rare", "sparingly", "truly necessary", "clear-cut criteria", and "only when all lesser options have been exhausted" (to pick out a few); clearly many feel that the mandatory notification to the administrators' noticeboard (for protections not related to arbitration enforcement) will serve an important purpose in allowing the community to monitor and review its use, and expect that these protections will be rare (possibly excepting an initial wave as admins make use of an option that was not available before). Therefore I believe it is reasonable to say that there is a consensus that extended-confirmed protection should not be used as a first resort, and possibly only where full protection would be necessary were it not for the new protection level. Other recurring themes worth picking out include:

There is little appetite to see extended confirmed protection become commonplace, and certainly not anything like as commonplace as semi-protection.

Concerns that reckless or naive admins will over-use the new protection level and use it in cases where it is not appropriate (which is a possibility with ~1200 admins, but I hope one that can be addressed through the reviews at AN). Further to this, BethNaught's suggestion on the talk page to send a mass message to all admins informing them of the policy for use of extended confirmed protection is one I endorse, and MusikAnimal is to be commended for volunteering his bot to assist with tracking new uses of the protection level.

Similarly, that those of us who are long past the threshold for 'extended confirmation' will simply forget that the vast majority of people cannot edit articles under extended confirmed protection. I recommend (though this is a personal recommendation, not one based on the discussion) that we consider putting a red background in the edit window as we do for admins editing fully protected pages and template editors editing protected templates, or some similar visual reminder.

At least one editor cautioned against over-using the new protection level and starting an "arms race" with disruptive editors.

As with any other protection, extended confirmed protection should be set for the shortest practicable duration (the initiators apparently believed this to be a given—as did I initially—but there was some confusion over it so it bears repeating in the closing remarks).

I recommend that the Protection Policy be updated with the wording from option C , with guidance related to over- or mis-use, but that this not come fully into force until the mass message to administrators has been sent out. I further recommend that a review of extended-confirmed protection (excluding arbitration enforcement) be done in three months' time to establish whether its use is living up to expectations.

— HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:46, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Background [ edit ]

Extended confirmed protection (also known as "30/500 protection") is a new level of article protection that only allows edits from accounts at least 30 days old and with 500 edits. The automatically assigned "extended confirmed" user right was created for this purpose. The protection level was created following this community discussion with the primary intention of enforcing various arbitration remedies that prohibit editors under the "30 days/500 edits" threshold to edit certain topic areas. The Arbitration Committee recently passed a motion that established expectations for use of the protection within the scope of arbitration enforcement.

The protection policy currently states that extended confirmed protection may only be applied in topic areas authorized by the Arbitration Committee or as a result of community consensus (per this discussion). However, it also states that Criteria for community use have not been established. This request for comment seeks to establish such a community process for the use of extended confirmed protection. A discussion at the village pump ideas lab produced the following options.

Options [ edit ]

Option A: Allow use only for topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee (current policy).

Allow use only for topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee (current policy). Option B: Allow use only for topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee or for persistent sockpuppetry where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective (similar to what ArbCom stipulated for arbitration enforcement and discretionary sanctions 30/500 applications). Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee.

Allow use only for topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee for where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective (similar to what ArbCom stipulated for arbitration enforcement and discretionary sanctions 30/500 applications). Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee. Option C: Allow use to combat any form of disruption (such as vandalism, edit wars, etc.) on any topic, given that semi-protection has proven to be ineffective. Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee.

Regarding the duration of the protection, extended confirmed protection does not differ from semi or other forms of protection in that the duration is proportional to the disruption observed. The one exception is topics authorized by the Arbitration Committee, which are often protected indefinitely.

For clarity, please support only one option. Supporters of option C may inherently support option B unless stated otherwise. Katietalk 00:31, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Option A [ edit ]

Option B [ edit ]

Support: Option C is vague, creates more caste and encourages editors to put "this user has extendedconfirmed permission" userboxes (more hat collecting!), and gives too much power to silence newcomers. Semi-protection works just fine for most cases. I support use only to stop paid advocates and other sockpuppets. Esquivalience (talk) Support – I originally supported the creation of 30/500 protection on the assumption that its use wouldn't be expanded beyond Arbcom-initiated areas, and I'm a little disappointed that this is being rushed towards the door of being used as "just another semi-protection level" already... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC) I'd prefer to see how we go with this for a while before we give all 1,184 admins carte blanche. Jenks24 (talk) 08:51, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Support - 30/500 protection would definitely be more effective against persistent sockpuppetry than semi-protection (i.e. "4/10 protection") in that it would take a full month for a sock to gain auto-extended confirmed status. However, I would add the caveat that community-imposed 30/500 should last no longer than 60–90 days, after which ArbCom would have to authorize indefinite 30/500 protection. Option C goes too far, and Option A doesn't give admins the flexibility to impose 30/500 in an emergency. — Jkudlick • t • c • s 09:05, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Oppose - "for persistent sockpuppetry where semi-protection has proven to be ineffective" I've seen several WP:RFP that make the claim it's sockpuppetry. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the article history shows IP edits and/or redlink accounts. WP:SI requires diffs and proof before they take on a case. This well-meant option requires no proof, and relies on the judgement of the requester and admin. Too much room for error. — Maile (talk) 14:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Support. Addressing Maile66, any admin can already block socks at WP:SPI based on the proof presented; the process there is already "requester and admin" for patrolling admins. As always, the discretion and accountability lies with the administrator. If admins go around placing protection without making a determination of sockpuppetry (or if they make such determinations with no regard to proof), then that's an issue of tool misuse. I don't believe I've ever been convinced that a rule shouldn't be made because people could break it. ~ Rob 13 Talk 14:57, 4 July 2016 (UTC) While Option C goes way too far, in my opinion, its preferable to Option A by a wide margin. Option C is my clear second choice. ~ Rob 13 Talk 13:27, 6 July 2016 (UTC) Support I am concerned, except in a few situations, about the message that this sends that newcomers are automatically less trustworthy than established editors. I think the best way to prevent new but autoconfirmed editors from with editing things they do not yet have the competence for is mentoring and advice rather than automated means. I am very uncomfortable about EP being used in edit warring situations because it effectively gives older accounts a great upper hand over newer users. I am not as concerned about full protection since admins go through a vetting process and risk desysop if they abuse their power over protected article. I would be open to creating a user right that would be granted upon request to edit through an intermediate protection level, but since extended confirm is about account age and not trust, it doesn't satisfy me in that regard. The only use of ECP I feel confortable with is to prevent socks, and even then I worry about overuse leading to a sort of arms race with sockmasters. Happy Squirrel (talk) 19:11, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Support - I can understand seing Option C as too vague and/or too far away from the wiki idea. If semi-protection doesn´t work get the 30/500 authorized by the ARBCOM and everything is fine. And the addition of usage against sockpuppetry makes absolute sense to me. What I would think about is making the 30/500 temporary at first, like automatically downgrading it to semi-protection after a month or something like that; with the option to easily renew and lengthen it if necessary. ...GELongstreet (talk) 11:55, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Support - without prejudice to migrating to C down the road after this is tried out. Recent use of 30/500 has been, in all cases so far, a "we're at the end of our wits trying to solve this, so its either this or full-protection". So Option B would maintain that Last-Resort mentality without having to tie up ArbCom. I think we give this a try and see how it works first. Using this for "regular disruption" treads the line on infringing on "anyone can edit" due to a few bad apples. It may be that it is inevitable, but I'd rather go incrementally down that road. Crow Caw 16:42, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Support - I agree that along with this, there should be a set expiration as well. DrkBlueXG (talk) 20:43, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Support - Without prejudice to Option C if proven to not be effective - the impact on (legitimate) new editors is likely to drive editors away from the project in frustration. -- sandgemADDICT yeah? 03:36, 6 July 2016 (UTC) Support. I'm concerned about making editing too difficult for new editors. It seems to me that the rationale of socking makes sense as being something where semi-protection really does not work. If there were to be a consensus among more than one admin before applying it to a page, I could support a revised option C. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:25, 6 July 2016 (UTC) Support - pages experiencing persistent sock-puppetry lack the safeguards to really do anything effective. Similarly, since I've been fairly active in outing sock and meat puppets, I know that they get smarter - they don't keep attempting the same obvious edits, meaning classifying them as socks is more difficult. They also learn pretty easily how to use different IP addresses. Creating this statute will help minimize tendentious editing from socks, as well as vandalism. DaltonCastle (talk) 19:08, 7 July 2016 (UTC) Support - I don't think that Option B is perfect, but I think it has the right idea behind it. The other options are not better. Br it com 02:06, 9 July 2016 (UTC) Support I think we might want to expand it further in the future, as with C, but we should get some more experience with it first. DGG ( talk ) 04:32, 8 July 2016 (UTC) Support, as much as I would have liked to support option C. (And scrap the automatic posting at AN for review, if someone that is actually editing the article disagrees they can raise the issue.) I do not agree with most of the blanket opposes to C. 30/500 is harsh, but it is less harsh than full protection. Moreover, a new level of protection is instruction creep, but it will exist anyways (or so it seems), be it admin action or ArbCom, so the proposal does not add to complexity. (Actually, making 30/500 admin action would reduce the complexity...) And finally, newbies are underrepresented in the decision-making that takes place here, but (1) it does not mean the decision reached will be wrong and (2) so are minors in the instances where the drinking and driving ages get decided. Newbies might be as intelligent as veteran editors (or arguably more, bunch of Wikiaholics) , but they have less experience with those issues. I see two arguments against 30/500 as admin action, and the second one is what pushes me to support B as a "trial option" before going full C (my clear second choice). 1. 30/500 allows a downgrade from full, which is good in general (less protection is better most of the time), but it also allows an upgrade from semi/pending when no admin would have been willing to impose full. I think this does not matter, because 30/500 is likely to come under as much scrutiny as full protection (if not more) for the next year or so, and afterwards the admins will have made necessary adjustments to community feedback to know which articles should go under which protection. Cases on the fence between semi/pending and full are precisely the ones that would benefit from 30/500 anyways. 2. Unlike full that locks out everyone and semi that does not lock out anyone for long, 30/500 has real potential to lock out of editing one side of an edit war while the other remains. I am ready to believe most admins are aware of such issues, but if "most" is 90% it still means a few of them could be misled into such an action. The potential for drama just seems too high to me. Tigraan Click here to contact me 15:29, 9 July 2016 (UTC) Support - based on review of the options. Kierzek (talk) 21:11, 9 July 2016 (UTC) Support Option B, but oppose Option C. I'm a big fan of incrementalism. Let's give option B a try and see how well it goes before moving on to Option C. NewYorkActuary (talk) 14:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC) Wikipedia has proven itself time and again to be a pure democracy regardless of the weight of arguments, and therefore option C will be implemented. The problem (as with a certain vote in my country not too long ago), is that while people are clear on what they don't want (a simple-to-game system), they're not at all clear on what hoops they are and are not willing to jump through, what sacrifices they are and are not willing to make, to achieve it. Thus, we are in a situation where we agree that we need a tool capable of making things harder for vandals, but have consensus to implement the tool with no policy other than "semi protection must have been tried and failed". 500 edits is a lot of effort for a vandal to go to, but it's also quite a hurdle for a good faith new user. In short of a workable policy to protect such users, option B is the appropriate step - signal that this should go further than Arbcom, but that we are not willing to use this as a free-for-all. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 00:11, 16 July 2016 (UTC) I support option B. This option combines the merits of Option A with additional but limited protection. With Option C, editors with good intentions but few edits (myself included) could be locked out of making key edits on important articles. Therefore I also strongly oppose C unless A or B is tried and found unsatisfactory. Mooseandbruce1 (talk) 23:32, 19 July 2016 (UTC) Support (moved from option C) – I changed my mind, actually I don't think there are really any valid uses outside sockpuppetry that can't be dealt with in other ways. nyuszika7h (talk) 14:00, 20 July 2016 (UTC) Oppose So much for the public part of WP. I have no tin foil hat but WP (and its "Arbitration committee") does begin to resemble animal farm. Juan Riley (talk) 00:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC) Support - The problem with discretionary power is not that it is prone to misuse, but that it is discretionary, and I have seen more of a trend not to enforce in discreetionary matters unless there's a "serious" issue (subjectively speaking). So I think Option C won't really change anything (despite the naysayers), and as Option A is by default no change, I support B. MSJapan (talk) 18:44, 24 July 2016 (UTC) Support Option B would be a good choice. Sockpuppetry is a huge problem here that need to be dealt with. I don't see the need for option C because we already have simi-protection and pending changes which works fine. Lets not make editing for the newcomers more difficult to contribute to the encyclopedia. Also, if option C was implemented, then there will be huge amount of requests at WP:RFP, and it would also encourage users to add this user has extendedconfirmed permission userboxes as Esquivalience has pointed out above. Ayub 407 talk 16:25, 25 July 2016 (UTC) Support, I'm aware that this point that this is likely pissing into the wind, but I would prefer caution before adopting this wholesale. If this limited trial is successful then we could look at "Option C" down the track. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:51, 26 July 2016 (UTC). Support. Option C is too vague, which introduces the potential for misuse. A clear demarcation of when it would be okay to use—i.e. passing through SPI—would introduce a needed check here. Tito xd (?!?) 20:08, 26 July 2016 (UTC) Support can't really think of may times that 30/500 would really help, other than sock and arbcom sanctions -- Aunva6talk - contribs 03:36, 27 July 2016 (UTC) Support and strong oppose option C. It seems to me that option B is the main reason why this protection level was created. Implementation of option C will definitely result in Wikipedia appearing to be hostile to newcomers, which is the exact opposite that this site needs to continue to maintain quality content. Many protected pages are major pages, which are often the ones where new users will first try to edit Wikipedia. Making that an immediate locked door will no doubt turn those new editors away. --Iamozy (talk) 14:26, 1 August 2016 (UTC) Support A is not enough, C is too much. IronDuke 23:30, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Option C [ edit ]

Discussion [ edit ]

AN notification [ edit ]

Option C question. Need clarification on "Notification is to be posted in a subsection of AN for review, unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee." What does this mean? Will this be a general notification permanently posted at AN, or is this to be posted every time it's used? Wording is open to interpretation. — Maile (talk) 12:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

As a disclaimer, I was the one that proposed the addition of the notification requirement during the village pump idea lab discussion. The idea, in my mind, was to require admins to post the levying of ECP on any given article for community review. The exception above means that if the article has been granted ECP through an Arbcom case, Gamergate for example, then the ECP is an Arbcom action, with the authority of the whole committee, and not an unilateral action by an admin. An Arbcom action such as this already requires a majority vote by the committee before being performed. As for the subsection notification, the requirement is like a block review. It's posted as a new thread, the community reviews, the discussion is closed once consensus supports or opposes the ECP action then it is archived as normal. Blackmane (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2016 (UTC) I think it should only be posted if someone has a problem with it to avoid cluttering the noticeboard. If nobody takes issue with the protection why take up space? It should be like a block review, we don't post every block for review just the ones someone takes issue with. HighInBC Need help? {{ping|HighInBC}} 13:40, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Agreed. Timothy Joseph Wood 13:44, 4 July 2016 (UTC) I agree. I think require notification in every instance may be overkill. We obviously need to monitor make sure it doesn't get overused but there are better mechanisms than counting AN posts.-- S Philbrick (Talk) 14:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC) No objection from me. My thinking was in the early days of it, there probably won't be that many requests for ECP so the first bunch of them may (or may not?) be worth putting past the community, but after that it would be as you and HighinBC indicate, that only those objected to would be reviewed on the noticeboards. WP:Requests for ECP board anyone...? Blackmane (talk) 14:51, 4 July 2016 (UTC) I strongly object. If this measure is to be used "sparingly", as many supporting option C have indicated, the notifications will be occasional and will not clutter the noticeboard. If ECP is used so frequently that the number of notifications is cluttering the noticeboard, we need to reexamine the use of ECP, not get rid of the notifications. The point of the AN notifications is to actively prod the community to monitor the use of this protection method. Just waiting for someone to object is not a good alternative, since the users with fewer than 500 edits that would be unable to edit an ECP article are unlikely to voice a complaint at AN, or even know what that noticeboard is for. Altamel (talk) 16:30, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Suggestion - If this action needs posting at AN, why not just have a bot trigger a posting everytime it's used. Either on the main AN page, or a sub page. That way, everyone will get an idea of whether it looks like it's being used too liberally. If it's only a once in a while usage, then it's no problem for an uninvolved editor to click on the link and see if it warrants a second look. — Maile (talk) 16:39, 4 July 2016 (UTC) I was going to say the same thing. Special:Log and the category will give us what we need, but it'd be nice to have a clean automated report to some subpage that we can transclude wherever we want, namely AN. User:MusikBot would be happy to do this for us :) MusikAnimal talk

The notification needn’t be set in stone; there’s nothing to prevent revisiting the procedure in a few months should it become a waste of time on the one hand, or be deemed inadequate on the other. I think it’s only prudent to have some ‘peer review’ under proposals B & C until a pattern of application is established. Moreover, if the only attention it receives is in the form of complaints (assuming there will be at least a few) there will be a sort of selection bias in people’s perception of the policy‘s success, while mandatory reporting will create an easily visible ‘track record’. (For that matter, it may be worthwhile to survey the reversions and edit-requests on ECP pages, to evaluate the balance of disruption-reduction against inconvenience to good-faith newbies and the editors who process their requests.)—Odysseus 1 4 7 9 07:10, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Will probably cast a vote soon... I hope that EC-P can effectively counter the sockpuppet accounts that are used to counter semiprotection i.e. accounts making 10 dummy edits and waiting 4 days to disrupt. (ex. see Special:Contributions/Rack3515, Special:Contributions/Rah2882, possibly (!AGF) Special:Contributions/South Morang. as far as I'm aware this is happening quite a bit) If they start to create sleeper accounts and make 500 dummy edits on their userpage or sandbox, that would be detrimental to this project. EC-P will likely make User:AnomieBOT/EPERTable more active and worthy of monitoring. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I'd like to see a change to Options B or C to add "... unless the topic is already authorized for 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee or community discussion at AN or ANI." If the community has reviewed multiple articles related to a topic area and endorsed the 30/500 protection on each of them, the community should eventually be allowed to make the determination that 30/500 is appropriate within the general topic area and future review isn't necessary unless someone disputes the protection. WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY and all that. ~ Rob 13 Talk 16:30, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

We discussed that (see the talk page). We left it out because anyone is free to bring up anything at AN at any time, including ECP for a page, as evidenced by the discussion that closed earlier this week. This is strictly about administrator discretion using ECP. Katietalk

Impact on newcomers [ edit ]

This proposal is being voted on by the people it would affect the least: we are approaching this RfC through an enormous blind spot. Who among us has fewer than 500 edits or can remember what it was like to be a newcomer? This proposal will drive away new users, and here's why: 500 edits seems like an insurmountable barrier to the average good-faith new user or IP (whereas making 10 edits for autoconfirm is quite achievable). To seasoned editors like us, 500 edits is nothing, but keep in mind new users are unsure of how to edit and may have been bitten by unnecessary warning templates on their talk page. The more frequently a newcomer encounters ECP-locked pages, the more they will conclude that Wikipedia does not want them.

Now, I see many users have asked that ECP be used only rarely, or when semi-protection fails. But besides the AN notification, nothing in this proposal would actually discourage admins from excessively applying ECP. Although this RfC sells ECP as an alternative to full-protection, ECP could easily become as widespread as semi-protection: with full vs. semi-protection, many active non-admins will argue against full protection. This is not the case when choosing between ECP and semi-protection, since the newcomers ECP restricts are unlikely to speak out against it. Wikipedia is failing to attract as many new editors as in the past; ECP will only exacerbate the decline.

TL;DR: ECP will be used excessively and drive away good-faith newcomers. Altamel (talk) 18:52, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Absolutely right, It's easy to ask this kind of sanctions if you know you wont be effected. -Hello new user, welcome to the encyclopedia anyone can edit! -Oh, I see you want to contribute to something related to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, excuse me but you first have to edit Broomstick and Garden hose articles to be eligible! Because, after all, a good editor is an editor with the highest edit count. -Oh you are an expert on the subject you say? You have no interest in editing Broomsticks and Garden hoses? You shameless SPA, get out of here!!! Darwinian Ape talk 21:49, 4 July 2016 (UTC) At least it's not Shrubbery and Path again. — xaosflux Talk 22:18, 4 July 2016 (UTC) Many newcomers are diving into the most contentious and bitter of dispute areas, Israel Palestine, India Pakistan, Syria, American Politics, Gamergate, etc.

There is a reason why these all have Arbcom cases. What has come out of the Gamergate is that the admin corps needs a new tool to deal with disruption. Autoconfirmed is easily gamed and protection might be too strong. There's not been an intermediate protection level that lets newbies who have picked up some experience continue while telling complete newbies "this article has seen some issues, we'd like you to test the waters in less conflict prone articles before diving in here" as opposed to Semi protection or protection which basically prevents all newbies from contributing altogether. Blackmane (talk) 22:59, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes there is a reason why these all have arbcom cases, and it's not the newcomers. Yes there might be a certain amount of disruption from newcomers especially when the topic is hot. But lets not pretend that newcomers are like children and the experienced editors are the adults trying to keep order. As I said above in the vote section, it was actually the biting from an experienced editor, who was shortly after topic banned, that led to 500/30 protection. Wikipedia was against creationists with all the resources to build an Ark, Scientologists with the power of Xenu, climate change deniers who are friends with creationists, all of which were much more powerful and well funded, those topics did not require this kind of protection but a hashtag with a lame internet drama was too much, we need new tools for admins, man the harpoons, it's Gamergate!!! I don't buy it. This protection might make the subject much more quiet, it does not make it better. Gamergate article didn't improve as far as I can see, It still reads like autism incarnate. And now people suggest using this protection as commonly as semi protection. Darwinian Ape talk 00:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC) One thing you may have missed is that the RFC is not about the topics that Arbcom has jurisdiction over but to grant admins discretionary use of ECP in lieu of semi protection, which is very rarely applied indefinitely. The articles Arbcom have jurisdiction over has, if I remember correctly, indefinite ECP applied. What the RFC is asking is whether Admins should be allowed to apply limited duration (at least that should be thrust of it) ECP to articles that are seeing heavy disruption from new accounts, sock accounts, IP's and sleepers. If ECP is not necessary, then the fall back position is semi protection. KrakatoaKatie: Blackmane (talk) 01:34, 5 July 2016 (UTC) Nothing in this RfC says ECP can only be applied for a limited duration. And given that there is no limitation, admins will extended confirm protect articles indefinitely. Altamel (talk) 01:47, 5 July 2016 (UTC) You are correct that the RFC does not say this. That is outside the scope of the RFC when admins aren't even permitted to apply ECP in the first place. The community needs to come to a consensus that actually permits admins to do so first before framing the policy that governs the practical use of the added protection. Step 1: You are allowed to do this. Step 2: This is the scope and here are your limitations. It'd be somewhat pointless if a policy was created and then the community consensus was "sorry you're not allowed to use ECP". Now that would be a right waste of time. Blackmane (talk) 02:46, 5 July 2016 (UTC) I should clarify that I meant to say, "given that there is no limitation, there will be instances where admins extend confirm protect articles indefinitely." I do believe that in most cases, admins will protect for a shorter period of time. Altamel (talk) 03:17, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Option C is a terrible precedent. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, and Option C purposely works against that. While there are points where semi can fail and full is not sufficient, requiring 500/30, and the current cases outlined by ArbCom seem reason (though I still object to how broadly it is used for I/P), but realistically, if semi is not working, there is something else going on that needs a better evaluation of the situation and not just slapping a closed door onto an article. The Internet is inherently not a safe space, and I've seen people suggesting 500/30 to make WP such a place, which can't happen without closing off the open-edit fundamental system. It might take more work and for editors and admins to show patience and restraint, but if we close off Wikipedia, the experiment has failed. --M ASEM (t) 01:13, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I knew this was where we were heading since the first proposal of this protection, and warned about the slippery slope. Edit count is becoming a wiki currency, perhaps always kinda was but never so profoundly. Let me tell you another problem with this protection, people will immediately be suspicious of anyone with just above 500 edits who participate in an ECP'ed article. I mean anyone who is willing to take the time to edit 500 times and wait a month just to be able to edit a topic must have an agenda, right? I actually saw a conversation exactly like that, and it wont be the last I assure you. With this RFC going the way it is, we will be throwing the AGF out of the window and the articles with this protection will be OWNED spaces. I sometimes understand the frustration of an editor who works in a contentious area, or an admin. It's easy to lose perspective and see the IP's and New editors as a disruption, but they are what makes this project what it is now. You are breaking the Wikipedia albeit with good intentions. Darwinian Ape talk 02:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC) I would add that although vandalism commonly comes from IPs and new users, on unprotected pages it is often the IPs and new users (in other words, casual readers) who spot the vandalism and remove it. On the other hand, it will be much more difficult to vandalize a 500/30 protected page, but if the Wikipedians using anti-vandalism tools fail to spot it immediately, we can no longer depend upon casual readers to revert vandalism that has fallen through the cracks. This is a feature, and not a bug of the open-edit system. Altamel (talk) 16:39, 5 July 2016 (UTC) As an occasional IP editor and long time reader, I have to agree with the concerns here. Many often ask how we can improve editor numbers on Wikipedia, yet additional bureaucracy like this does little but discourage newcomers and long time editors in both controversial and mundane topics as they try to navigate the minefields. Personally, I don't think Wikipedia can return to glory without a serious trimming of policies and guidelines and a serious review of every member of the administration, and this change is antithetical to what was built as the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, but that's neither here nor there. 50.32.227.204 (talk) 02:22, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Can the multitude of people who support Option C, give a few examples of how the current none-semi-full protection system falls short on some articles? In practice, 500/30 has only been used so far as an "indefinite" (or very long duration) measure. I am concerned that this might become the new default "semi-protection" measure which is often used for an indefinite duration. This has resulted, in some cases, an indef semi-protection on an article for years after the original vandalism/sockpuppetry, simply because nobody switched it off. See the history of Imaginary number for an example. If Option C passes, then may I suggest an explicit time limit on the protection, with indef 500/30 only allowed via ArbCom directives. I see many people saying that it is "a good alternative to full-protection": but full-protection is typically only used for a short duration, till the dispute cools down. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 09:33, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

A good example, digging into the past, would have been the MMA (Mixed martial arts) articles that, for a time, showed up at ANI virtually every week. There was a great deal of disruption from a lot of new accounts and IP's largely due to off wiki forums, so many articles were semi'd however, there was a solid enough fan base who ensured they were autoconfirmed to keep pushing the disruption. ECP would have been an excellent choice to deploy at that point. Articles relating to politicians that are not covered by WP:ARBAP2, particularly around election time in any given country especially those given to extreme partisan politics, would be another example. Like I said in an another post, a discussion about specific aspects, such as duration, should wait until consensus has been reached as to actually permit admins to deploy ECP. Blackmane (talk) 15:15, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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Comment about Option C , EC is permanent, or usually is, yet socking or edit warring is a fleeting thing. Why would we want to protect an article so that someone can't contribute positively? Perhaps Option C should have a time limit, temp-EC. As for my Option A, I could see a fast-track system of ARBCOM approvals so that we don't have to wait for a full case to get ARBCOM approval for EC. The one thing we SHOULD NOT have is EC available to every admin. It will do terrible things to Wikipedia. Everyone can edit is turning into only the elite can edit. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2016 (UTC) To implement your not-every-admin suggestion, the permission protect would need to change, and ECP protection would need to be its own permission then, called " extended-protect-pages " perhaps, that doesn't get packaged to sysops by default. Who would grant this permission? Bureaucrats? I personally don't see this happening any time soon. — Andy W. talk · ctb) What is the problem with giving ECP to admins? MartinZ02 (talk) 20:35, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

, EC is permanent, or usually is, yet socking or edit warring is a fleeting thing. Why would we want to protect an article so that someone can't contribute positively? Perhaps Option C should have a time limit, temp-EC. As for my Option A, I could see a fast-track system of ARBCOM approvals so that we don't have to wait for a full case to get ARBCOM approval for EC. The one thing we SHOULD NOT have is EC available to every admin. It will do terrible things to Wikipedia. Everyone can edit is turning into only the elite can edit. Sir Joseph 16:30, 5 July 2016 (UTC) 30/500 protection (or ECP) is absolutely not permanent . The only time an indefinite duration is appropriate is for topics authorized by ArbCom, and even then it's no hard requirement. Usage of 30/500 will follow that of any protection level – use the shortest effective duration . I'm sorry this was not clear, perhaps we should amend the wording for clarity. Semi on the other hand may be handed out more liberally since it involves less collateral damage, but semi itself is not given a longer duration because it is still "technically open to edits", and this would be much less the case for the more restrictive 30/500 protection. This should go without saying, but we can amend the policy language to clarify that 30/500 is no different than the other protection levels when it comes to deciding on a duration (with exception of highly visible templates which are given an indefinite duration) MusikAnimal talk Pinging Sir Joseph and Darwinian Ape MusikAnimal talk Blackmane, Altamel , and KrakatoaKatie clarified this. It's impossible to think that we could as a functioning open encyclopedia allow indefinite extended confirmed protection to be applied haphazardly. The protection duration is relative to the disruption, just as it is with semi, PC and full protection. Template protection on the other hand is for highly visible templates, which are intrinsically protected indefinitely MusikAnimal talk That is a step in the right direction, thanks. However, I still have my doubts with how vigorously protection duration guidelines will be enforced. Part of the reason why long-length full protection is so rare is because sysops recognize only 1,296 Wikipedia accounts will be able to edit that page, and if they do apply full protection haphazardly, the multitude of experienced editors who are not admins will surely raise complaints. On the other hand, experienced non-admins won't be affected by the haphazard application of EC protection, so they have no incentive to complain unless they dislike EC on principle. Meanwhile, the new users (those with less than 500 edits) are unlikely to request unprotection due to their unfamiliarity with Wikipedia, or unwillingness to jump through so many hoops. Proportional duration is still up to each admin's interpretation. If an admin does decide to EC protect a page indefinitely, it could easily languish that way forever. Just looking through Special:ProtectedPages, I see many indefinitely-semi'd articles that should probably have been unlocked years ago. I can provide examples upon request. Altamel (talk) 23:01, 5 July 2016 (UTC) No need to provide examples. Ask the protecting admin about it, and if you get no response post at WP:UNPROTECT. You are absolutely right that non-extended confirmed users are less likely to speak up about their inability to edit, but they are certainly more likely than unconfirmed users. My point here is that no admin in their right mind is going to add indefinite extended confirmed protection without trying shorter durations first. If they do that is abuse or severe negligence, plain and simple. Outside ArbCom-authorized topics or long-term issues of sockpuppetry, you probably won't see a need for an indefinite duration since semi usually does the trick. Even for semi, I can't tell you how many times I see "indefinite semi-protection" being requested at RFPP and the response is "semi-protected for a period of 1 week". As much as we care about protecting the wiki we care about keeping it open MusikAnimal talk MusikAnimal: xaosflux Talk 01:40, 6 July 2016 (UTC) Xaosflux: MusikAnimal talk I'm not saying it is a good reason - just that I see where it may happen...I was just thinking of bot options too--will ping your talk. — xaosflux Talk 02:09, 6 July 2016 (UTC) (edit conflict) x2. Personally, I'm not focused on the duration of the ECP at this point as I'd rather be more focused on the actual question which the RFC frames. The discussion has already deviated from the main question. While the concern of ECP duration certainly needs to be addressed, my opinion is that it doesn't need to be addressed just yet . The RFC discussion is already getting bogged down in policy minutiae. Blackmane (talk) 23:50, 5 July 2016 (UTC) We don't need a follow up discussion on what durations to go with for ECP. The philosophy of minimum effective administrative action is already in practice and I have every reason to believe competent admins will do no different with a new form of protection MusikAnimal talk

. The only time an indefinite duration is appropriate is for topics authorized by ArbCom, and even then it's no hard requirement. Usage of 30/500 will follow that of any protection level – use the . I'm sorry this was not clear, perhaps we should amend the wording for clarity. Semi on the other hand may be handed out more liberally since it involves less collateral damage, but semi itself is not given a longer duration because it is still "technically open to edits", and this would be much less the case for the more restrictive 30/500 protection. This should go without saying, but we can amend the policy language to clarify that 30/500 is no different than the other protection levels when it comes to deciding on a duration (with exception of highly visible templates which are given an indefinite duration) Comments: [1] Articles with serious quality issues, such as largely unsourced or poorly sourced (blogs/non-RS), should not be subject to ECP or only for very short periods. Else, ECP will be protecting articles with amazing OR or fascinatingly absurd POVs with no sources cited, and preventing contributions from new editors who might be rightfully bothered. [2] I am not persuaded by comments above that are worried about new topic-experts unable to participate, because they can always post their draft or suggestions on the article's talk page. For contentious topics, that is usually the best first step anyway. [3] An article that is subject to persistent vandalism, edit warring and disruptive WP:TE will exhaust any topic-expert (anyone for that matter). Semi-protecting and ECP for 1 to 6 months can actually help new knowledgeable editors or topic-experts to help improve the quality of difficult or contentious topics, in a more stable format through the article's talk page. We must assume good faith not only for new users, but also for not-new users and for admins. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:55, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree that this is likely to have an adverse effect. I'm a fairly casual Wikipedian, I've been here since 2007 and thought I'd amassed hundreds of edits - but it turns out to be 94. To me, and I suspect *many* others, 500 edits is the same as full protection. Some of my edits have been gnoming, whereas some have been creating new (or vastly improved) graphics for articles into which I put a lot of work; and I have never vandalised, been rude, or engaged in an edit war. I feel that (a) I have earned my right to make good-faith improvements to articles, and (b) I shouldn't have to, beyond auto-verification.

I understand that some articles need semi- or full protection, but 30-500 seems just a re-branding of full protection with less oversight, allowing people to effectively take ownership of an article, either in bad faith or in misguided good faith. If an article needs strong protection, give it full protection. If it needs less protection, give it semi or nothing. 30 days is a reasonable request for new but genuine editors; 500 edits is an insurmountable hurdle. Cosmogoblin (talk) 00:47, 13 July 2016 (UTC) This is exactly the sort of viewpoint that we need to see more of, but our RfCs will always have an inbuilt bias against users like you—casual editors who would probably voice strong opposition were they aware of the proposal. For me, 500 edits was nothing, because I'm a sort of spammy-style editor who will make tons of typo corrections as I see them, but I absolutely agree that there will be many editors out there who feel the way you do—for whom amassing 500 edits using automated tools or for such trivial wastes of time as searching for typos is an absurd concept, and the fact that they plod along at their own pace, making fewer but more important edits, provides no reason why they shouldn't have the same right as '30/500' users to edit controversial pages. Bilorv (talk) (c)(e) While I don't fully agree with Cosmogoblin, I do agree with some of his points. I'm also a fairly casual Wikipedian. I've been here a bit more than one and a half years now and I've made about 60 edits per year, give or take a few. Therefore, it would take me about six to seven more years to achieve EC status, which could be a big problem if ECP was used on many articles. I've never tried to edit an article on a very contentious topic, so this wouldn't really affect me yet. However, it feels like content creators or casual Wikipedians could take a long time to achieve 500, even if they are good-faith members of the community and good at what they do. I would be much more comfortable with a 30/200 restriction or something similar. Greatedits1 (I hope so | If not, let me know) 22:14, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Many of the option C supporters have either mentioned 500/30 ECP as intermediate between semi- and full protection. Both of those protections usually have a short duration. Some have even stated using ECP only for a short period to stop disruption. This is not the current experience. ECP is generally applied as a permanent page restriction. Is option C only attractive if there is a commitment to expirations similar to full and semi expirations? --DHeyward (talk) 00:24, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear. I've updated the options to state the duration chosen should be no different than that of semi/PC/full except for topics authorized by ArbCom. This is why the pages you've seen under ECP thus far are of indefinite duration (not that I completely endorse this practice). This will not be the case for general disruption like edit wars, sockpuppetry and vandalism. ECP is only to be used if semi has proven to be insufficient and full protection is inappropriate MusikAnimal talk I'm concerned because even outside the lines articles have very long time or no expiry (the example article Disgusting has no expiry which I think is problematic and will be going forward without strict rules). The irony of it being used on caste articles is not lost especially when applied indefinitely. I'd prefer a much stricter non-arbcom article time limit so as not to make the restriction a characteristic of the article or topic (those are ArbCom decisions or community decisions). Say a 3-month maximum. It should probably be treated as full-protection in terms of time in order to be egalitarian and avoid the problem of registered user castes. Also clarify that it is never appropriate in user or WP spaces (i.e. admins who semi-protect their userspace should never escalate to EC protection, they should warn/block the registered account). EC is solving an admin resource issue rather than an article content quality issue and shouldn't reflect "not trusted enough yet" back on the editor. --DHeyward (talk) 08:24, 6 July 2016 (UTC) Your example is an excellent one; This is a redirect that will not form a new article since it's merely a grammatical variation of the target article, so indefinite duration is not really inappropriate (though I would have gone with something more brief). We saw repeated vandalism from multiple confirmed users (blocks proved ineffective), so it was fully protected, but Yaris noticed ECP would do the job just fine so extended confirmed users can still add redirect sorting, or what have you. Next, one could conceivably have good reason to protect user pages and Wikipedia pages under ECP, for the same reasons we would in the mainspace. My userpage is actually fully protected. There was some disruption from way back when, but either way it's my userspace; it is not meant for collaboration. The exceptions are of course user talk pages (or any talk page for that matter) – rarely protected in any form. I don't know why admins would add ECP to their userspace but I see no harm in doing so if there's good reason. There is also no maximum duration for protection levels, including full protection, ECP will be no different. It's about good judgement and mostly common sense, and the same judgement will be applied with ECP, with added caution in situations where it is used over the less restrictive semi. If semi doesn't work and I protect under ECP for 2 days, 1 week, 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, perhaps 2 years, and disruption still is out of hand, it's time for indefinite. It would have to be really bad for that to actually happen; like I said I think such scenarios will be few and far between. Most of the time it's just juvenile vandalism or BLP violations that require page protection, and semi takes care of that quite well. Anyway you are correct that this is an admin resource, precisely, just like any other tool in the toolbox. The only protection that really could be perceived as reflecting the trust of the user is template protection, since such pages are highly visible and changes will be widespread, e.g. we don't want a bunch of trial/error edits that break the template on 20,000 pages. If we're only looking at maybe 100 or so transclusions, the template might be a good candidate for ECP given we're only suffering from vandalism or edit warring from confirmed users. ECP allows extended confirmed users to still contribute to this otherwise not-so-high-risk template, which is a win-win, right? In a nutshell, semi/PC/ECP/full are just as you say admin resources to combat disruption, plain and simple, but revolve around our policy which purposefully reflects the spirit that a wiki is supposed to be open, and it's this mentality that admins are expected to have MusikAnimal talk

ECP should be treated exactly like Full Protection and further clarification on when to use is needed. [ edit ]

The current wording for the time limit clarification is "protection does not differ from semi or other forms of protection." But the semi and full protection are applied very differently, that is, semi protection tends to be longer while full protection is much shorter. I would ask the ECP to be treated exactly as the full protection, and given the cautious tone of most people who voted the option C, I think that it could be the consensus. I should also like the wording to be clearly state when it's appropriate and when is not. For example, if there is a conflict with two sides, one EC the other not, ECP should not be used as a means to silence the non-EC editors. Because that will in effect topic ban the one side of the discussion regardless of the behaviors of the individuals. Currently admins have to assess the situation to see exactly which editors are being disruptive, they don't ban all inexperienced editors indiscriminately. Using this protection, in effect bans every good faith non-EC editor working on that area even if they are not disruptive, while allowing any EC editor who is disruptive but not enough to warrant a ban yet. Darwinian Ape talk 22:47, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Treating ECP as a substitute for Full Protection for vandalism is why I support option C: full protection for vandalism rewards trolls who want articles locked and punishes all non-admin editors. And if an article has a lot of new editors who want to make changes, using ECP instead of full protection allows more editors to carry out edit requests, reducing the amount of time before someone can carry out those changes. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC) My fear is that, in time, there will be as many ECP articles as semi articles, which will impact the project severely. The current proposal says it would be used against "any form of disruption" Also the duration is said to be like semi or full protection. I think the option C should be amended to state exactly which kind of circumstances it is appropriate rather than giving a general description like "to combat any form of disruption." and caution admins never to place indefinite ECP on articles. I've missed this reply, apologies for the late response . Darwinian Ape talk 04:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC) A significant number of articles ending up under ECP would only mean that semi protection has failed anyway ("given that semi-protection has proven to be ineffective"). Under a more conservative interpretation of option C (read as "only use this if semi has failed, i.e. instead of full protection"), then it's just a replacement for full protection in cases of heavy vandalism or where all editors involved are not extended confirmed, and like full protection would always be temporary. The problematic examples you've listed elsewhere (e.g. applying ECP in a content dispute when one party is extended confirmed and the other isn't) would be obvious misuse of admin tools (like semi protecting an article when one party is autoconfirmed and the other isn't). That situation isn't an argument for getting rid of semi protection, is it? Ian.thomson (talk) 14:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC) You say it will be, like full protection, always temporary. That's great, can we write that down clearly in the proposal so as to avoid any future misunderstandings? It would also be helpful to note that it's not appropriate to use ECP in content disputes, just to be on the safe side. Currently the wording of proposal C is that it can be used against any kind of disruption, which includes content disputes gone wild. I still don't think ECP is a good idea, but at least we can minimize the damage done by it this way. Darwinian Ape talk 02:40, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Removal [ edit ]

This may have been answered above but could someone clarify how extended protections are removed? Do they require a consensus at AN or can it be done at the discretion of an administrator? Or is it cannot be removed until it's time limit has expired and what about in the case whereby it has been applied indefinitely? Thanks, Mkdwtalk 15:46, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Given the expectation that Admin levied ECP, except ArbCom authorised ECP, would be time limited, it would be removed at the end of the time limit. Alternatively, I (taking a punt here) expect that requests for removal can be made to WP:RFPP or, failing that, WP:AN. Blackmane (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2016 (UTC) Yes, non-ArbCom usage of ECP works like any other protection level and can be removed at admin discretion, requested at RFPP, or simply expire MusikAnimal talk

Option C: Finding or proviso? [ edit ]

Option C would allow 30/500 limitation, "given that semi-protection has proven to be ineffective". As written, this is a general finding that semi-protection is not effective. Is that the intended meaning, or does the proponent mean for it to be a proviso, so that if semi-protection has been tried in a particular case, and is found to be ineffective, then 30/500 limitation may be imposed? The present language grants unlimited and arbitrary power to impose 30/500 limitation wherever semi-protection might otherwise apply. Is this what the proponent and supporters want? If not, and the language is intended as a proviso, then it should be rewritten, substituting "if" or "where" for "given that". J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 16:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Excellent point. While I still prefer Option A myself, I'd feel better about C if we agree that semi-protection and/or pending changes be tried first. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:53, 7 July 2016 (UTC) We don't necessarily need to try semi first. If I look at a revision history and see that there are numerous confirmed users causing disruption, I know that semi won't be effective. That is proven purely by the edit counts of the abusers. If we see that disruption is from unconfirmed users, no admin is going to jump to ECP knowing semi will work just fine. There may however be a scenario where semi was deemed appropriate at first, and then the numerous socks or what have you waited till they became confirmed to continue disrupting. In that case the protection might be elevated to ECP. The decision to use ECP over semi of course also involves other considerations: Will blocking the users be effective? Is there an edit filter that could be tweaked? This is the normal process and having ECP does not change that. It's about judgement and carrying out the most effective preventive measure that has the least amount of collateral damage. I'm sorry this unclear to users who are less familiar with the administrative process, but I don't think we need to spell it out because frankly that's the philosophy ingrained in a wiki and a new level of protection is not going to change our core values MusikAnimal talk In that case, why bother with a written policy at all? Option C pretends to establish some kind of standard, but it really just authorizes administrators to do whatever they think is best with the power placed in their hands. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 20:51, 7 July 2016 (UTC) Just today I saw an RFPP request for several pages that are being disrupted by a sockfarm of users that will all be autoconfirmed in the next 72 hours. That's one example of the kind of thing we're trying to stop, and that's how ECP will be useful to us. As administrators, we take the whole 'encyclopedia anyone can edit' thing seriously. We do not want to stop IP editing, and we do not want to discourage new editors. But there are an increasing number of cases of sockpuppetry and disruption where ECP could help us. We are experienced at this, and we understand how long and what type of protection is best. Please assume good faith in the admin corps. We really are here to help the encyclopedia, and we want the best for the project and the movement. Katietalk Administrators already have the power to fully protect the article, which is far stronger a protection level than semi or ECP; any "if-then-else" or "if-and-only-if" approach is overly restrictive. Admins who regularly patrol RFPP and are experienced in applying protection should be, by default, given the benefit of the doubt that they will assess the situation and do their own due diligence before protecting an article. The addition of the community review requirement is to ensure there is oversight of their actions, since ultimately, admins are answerable to the community. Blackmane (talk) 02:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC) Why not rewrite this as "given that the disruption is caused by autoconfirmed users"? This requires that semi-protection has proven ineffective but also allows for the edge case where the disruption is being caused by users which semi wouldn't work on. It doesn't make sense to require the step of semi-protecting an article where the accounts being used to edit it wouldn't be affected by that protection level. ~ Rob 13 Talk 03:16, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Content disputes [ edit ]

I would hope this would be incredibly obvious to all admins, but can we include text in Option C indicating that extended confirmed protection is never appropriate in response to a content dispute where one side is extended confirmed and the other is not? Full protection "works" in response to edit warring because it forces discussion. It would be horribly inappropriate to lock one side out of the page as a substitute for discussion. I'm not talking about abuse from an involved admin. I'm talking about an admin who responds to an RFPP request or AN3 report and may be tempted to try the new lower protection level before full protection without considering the ramifications. This is the main reason I'm not supporting Option C as written. ~ Rob 13 Talk 03:20, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

It is obvious to admins, particularly those of us who regularly work RFPP and AIV, that semi-protection is never appropriate in a content dispute when one is not autoconfirmed and the other is not. This is no different, and it's already written into WP:PP. Almost every day there's a request for protection from someone who wants their 'side' to prevail in an content dispute with an IP while disguising it as an attempt to control disruption, and we always have to be sure we're not locking out someone who has a real problem with content. If admins understand the protection policy – and we do – there's no need to add your text. Katietalk The place it's written into the protection policy is under the guidance for WP:SEMI, though. Does it not make sense to provide similar guidance for 30/500? Alternatively, the existing guidance could be relocated somewhere that isn't specific to only one protection level. This isn't only applicable to the admins protecting pages, but also to newer editors who seek to understand the protection policy and how it's applied. ~ Rob 13 Talk 18:45, 8 July 2016 (UTC) I would boldly change WP:BLUELOCK to add the same text as in the semi subsection, but since we haven't finished this RFC yet it doesn't make any sense to do it. Honestly, though, this RFC was open to suggestions and the draft was open and advertised for editing for almost a month before I published it. Over 100 editors have weighed in on the options given. We cannot keep amending it now and expect any kind of consensus. If Option C passes, I give you my word that I will add that text to BLUELOCK. Katietalk That's perfectly fine. I agree that boldly adding this would be appropriate. I'm just trying to avoid the almost inevitable cry of "But Option C said 'edit wars'!" in a month. I did participate somewhat at the village pump thread, but that language was introduced on June 30 when I was on vacation. ~ Rob 13 Talk 19:13, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

PC2 protection [ edit ]

Someone above (Dps04) made a good point: Why is it that editors are overwhelmingly approving unrestricted use for this "intermediate" protection level, but yet rejected the also intermediate PC2 for reasons of "bureaucracy and hierarchy"? Even more remarkably, PC2 was weaker, to a certain extent. With PC, changes are simply reviewed and not blocked outright. But ECP is hard protection—editing is completely disallowed for those who have less than 500/30. What is the reason for this conflict? Could it be that people voting here are not concerned because they know that ECP will not affect them due to their long tenures and high edit counts? Biblio (talk) WikiProject Reforming Wikipedia. 20:16, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I fully support PC2, but as I see it, ECP is currently the path of least resistance. We've not even established that PC2 should exist yet, and that's not necessarily a trivial thing. I just checked, and one of the current pending changes reviewers isn't yet extended confirmed. It's Widr's alternate account Rdiw, to be fair, but what even happens from a technical standpoint when that occurs? Can the reviewer review edits but not make them? ~ Rob 13 Talk 20:40, 9 July 2016 (UTC) I didn't participate in the PC2 discussions because they were during a health break for me; I'm on the fence about it in concept, and I can see some practical difficulties with it as we're set up now. Rob correctly points out one of them. The biggest one to me, though, is that if we enable PC2 we're giving the reviewers much more control over content, and to some that sets up an additional hierarchy of users to which Biblioworm referred. An edit by an established user without the reviewer user right, even one with 100K edits, would have to be approved by another established user on an edit-by-edit basis. It sets the reviewers apart from other users, and that rankles some people that might not be so rankled about ECP. We're also not currently granting the reviewer user right based on PC2 criteria – we're doing it based on countervandalism history and experience, and that would need to change if PC2 were implemented. This isn't the place to rehash the PC2 discussion, though. It's been two years since the last well-publicized RFC on the subject, so when this is over, if someone wants to propose it again, maybe it's time. (Not going to be me, though. I'm RFC'd out for a while.) Katietalk The biggest [problem] to me, though, is that if we enable PC2 we're giving the reviewers much more control over content. ... An edit by an established user...would have to be approved. ... [T]hat rankles some people that might not be so rankled about ECP. That is exactly my point. Experienced editors who habitually vote in RfCs would naturally be much more inclined to support this because it has no effect on them. A good deal of experienced editors had a personal stake in opposing PC2, because it would subject their edits to review. However, the fact is that they have absolutely no stake in whether this is implemented, because ECP will not affect them in the least. They will still be able to freely edit all ECP-protected articles, even though new users are locked out. I find this very concerning. Note that my object here is not to revive the PC2 discussion, but rather to use it a contrasting example. Biblio (talk) WikiProject Reforming Wikipedia. 22:03, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

PC2 is complicated to administer, and somewhat confusing. (so is PC1, but the combination would make them yet more confusing). EPC has the advantage of being self-operating and immediately understandable. DGG ( talk ) 22:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

As BU Rob13, I support both and the community is happy to accept 30/500 thanks to GamerGate. PC2 makes more sense as it enables contributors to limit content disputes but there's far more trust in the admin corps than there is in the reviewers. Chris Troutman ( talk ) I've actually reviewed PC2 more recently and don't think I'd support it anymore in its current form. I was unclear on what exactly PC2 was when I previously gave my opinion, and I'm now concerned that the reviewer user right wasn't granted to reviewers with the intent for them to serve as basically respondents to fully-protected edit requests. I'd only support PC2 if we separated out the reviewer PC1 and reviewer PC2 user rights (with the PC2 needing to be requested by current reviewers). Specifically, any editor with a history of edit warring should not be able to review PC2 revisions for obvious reasons, but we've never had cause to heavily consider that when granting that flag up until now. ~ Rob 13 Talk 00:42, 2 August 2016 (UTC) As far as I'm concerned, PC2 + semi should be available right now as an option for pages subject to extreme disruption. And yet... here we are. Even if PC2 were available, however, 30/500 would be valuable as another tool in the chest. Pages that would otherwise be subject to full protection might benefit from PC2 + 30/500 simultaneously. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:44, 9 August 2016 (UTC) By the way, extended full protection of articles due to extreme disruption is not a hypothetical. Right now, we have List of social networking websites, Syed Mohsin Nawab Rizvi, and Mass killings under Communist regimes under indefinite full protection, with no apparent end in sight. These are exactly the sort of situations in which PC2 + 30/500 might prove useful. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 02:54, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Bots (bug) [ edit ]

This is a tech bug, following up on VPT (c.f. Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#My_bot_can.27t_edit_extended_protected_pages ) If we expand this permission for more general use, it may also be appropriate to bundle the access permission to the existing bot usergroup. Bots may already be manually flagged if their operator qualifies, but do not autopromote. Any thoughts? — xaosflux Talk 21:29, 10 July 2016 (UTC) The permission is already bundled to the bot group per Special:ListGroupRights.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:33, 10 July 2016 (UTC) Was just reverting this! Looks like a "bug", will follow up on VPT with phab ticket. — xaosflux Talk 21:34, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Oppose extended confirmed protection policy [ edit ]

If anybody opposes extended confirmed protection policy, comment here.

Option D, et al? [ edit ]

The Environment Created by Extended Confirmed [ edit ]

I mentioned this before, but I think it should be discussed more thoroughly.

The environment which the extended confirmed policy creates is highly toxic. It assumes bad faith for all potential editors and locks them out, not for lack of merit, but for an arbitrary edit count and a tenure, in turn the editors who are participating in an ECP area are much more willing to throw the AGF away. In part because of the most likely correct assumption that anyone willing to fulfill the requirements for ECP just to edit an article must have at the very least very passionate opinions about the article subject. I've already given an example for this exact attitude of assuming bad faith.

People are already discussing the ineffectiveness of 500/30 at the AE talk page with some editors assuming very bad faith. But you created this environment.Yes the autoconfirmed is easily gamed, and this protection is not, but who do you think you are barring more? Dispassionate new contributors, or the disruptive POV warriors who are willing to work their way to ECP? And by chance someone who is a good faith editor edits after becoming an ECP, he or she will be met with extreme failure to AGF because of this environment you are creating here. I ask all the Wikipedians who care about this experiment to reconsider. I am, humbly yours, Darwinian Ape talk 01:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

All ARBPIA articles fall under 30/500, but new accounts and IPs often edit in the area as most articles are not actually locked down under 30/500. I and other users only care to enforce 30/500 in the topic area for the worst editors and not at all for the casual editor. Under this system serious editors are no longer blocked by admins when they revert a wave of sockpuppets. This has dramatically reduced the effectiveness and thus number of sockpuppets, though these puppetmasters are now putting in 500 mostly minor edits and waiting 30days per account to again disrupt the encyclopedia. I think those accounts clearly owned by previously blocked editors who quickly pass 30/500 to disrupt the topic area should be blocked just as their previous accounts were. Sepsis II (talk) 02:43, 14 July 2016 (UTC) You only care to enforce ECP for people you deem are "worst editors," don't get me wrong I don't assume you are pushing a POV and allowing only the editors who share your POV while reporting others, but you have to agree that it may be used as such and is a broken system to begin with. You in effect have an administrative power to choose who is productive and who is not. There is a reason for the distinction of involved admins. (This is unique to ARBPIA3 where the arbcom unwisely created a broad sanction which made it impossible to ECP every article this sanction applies, another of the many flaws of this new protection.) Secondly, as you just said, the puppetmasters are willing to create and game this new system too, which supports what I said that the only people who are being disallowed are the dispassionate new editors.

Right now the uniqueness of the ARBPIA3 allows you to permit the casual good faith editors because not all pages of I/P conflict is physically ECP'ed, that is assuming the established editors wont favor casual editors who support their POV. But it wont be the case for articles with ECP in place, which will only leave the sock masters who are patient enough to EC their way to the articles, and the occasional good faith editors who just passed 500/30 will be lumped together with these disruptive editors. Tell me what is the benefit of having this proteciton again? Darwinian Ape talk 03:27, 14 July 2016 (UTC) If you had edited in the ARBPIA area you would have made thousands of reverts, filed hundreds of reports, been blocked by naive admins, and been called various racial slurs hundreds of times, due to socking. I wish you had been there years ago, then you would know. Sepsis II (talk) 15:20, 14 July 2016 (UTC) I do not deny the frustrating nature of contributing in a contentious area, and sympathize with you even though I've never edited in that area. But this protection is fundamentally flawed and it's the antithesis of Wikipedia. Furthermore this protection, while it may reduce the socking, encourages the ownership of articles which is another big problem, at the end It is more trouble than it's worth. Darwinian Ape talk 17:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

This is a good example of the flaw inherent to the 30/500 system: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:HistoryWrite&oldid=702887766 It was posted at the Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement page by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Malik_Shabazz. The full conversation is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#WP:ARBPIA3.23500.2F30_2 BorkBorkGoesTheCode (talk) 06:14, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I hate the generalization that ECP makes. Editors are always going on about how "edit count doesn't matter", then come on RFCs and say another thing entirely. Compared to other editors, I've done rather poorly on the edit count basis, and a third of my edits are in user space. But my point is that if I decided to start inflating my edit count legitimately right now, I might be at 1500 edits at the end of the month. But I don't want to. And the Option C supporters are making the generalization that edit count shows how useful you are on Wikipedia. Yesterday I encountered an editor with more than 3,000 edits, with only around 200 in mainspace. His only interest seemed to be to get people to sign his guestbook to earn the {{User X}} Guestbook Barnstar. (Not to embarrass the editor, he has already been warned and has promised to change.) Is this what we want to encourage new editors to do to inflate their edit counts? Secondly, I think this will just serve to perpetrate a society where the elites only get more elite, and the rest sink into oblivion. When a non-EC editor spots an error on a blue-locked article, who's going to have to edit it? An EC editor. Which is going to inflate his/her edit count even more. In the future, should the community decide they want a 1-year 1000-edit restriction, the EC editor will benefit while the non-EC editor is locked out once again while he could have edited and overcome this restriction. MediaKill13 ( talk ) 06:27, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

I took a random sample of 20 (out of ~120) users who voted for Option C. The result: most accounts were several years old, about 30-40% claimed to have made several thousand edits, and a few were administrators. I'm afraid that the people who are voting for C are not representative of Wikipedia editors in general, especially since most people would be unlikely to vote on this page, let alone know about its existence.

It has been found that, although the majority of edits are performed by experienced users, the majority of bytes are written by inexperienced users. These editors lacking extended confirmation should not be penalized for the small minority of vandals. It is easier to revert vandalism than it is to write new content. Mooseandbruce1 (talk) 23:55, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

I would wager that many of those users you sampled would also be well experienced in, or personally exposed to, the disruption that led to the RFC. Might I consider you spend a month or two on WP:ANEW, WP:AIV, WP:RFPP, WP:ANI or WP:AN for a sample of the environment that necessitates protection of whatever level. The various entries at WP:LTA would also be enlightening. Blackmane (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)





What about the environment that full protection for vandalism creates? It tells trolls "if you fuck with us enough, we'll crawl in our shells and not allow anyone except admins to edit." It tells non-admins "you can only edit these pages when (or if) an admin sees your edit request on the talk page." If we use ECP as a substitute for full protection for vandalism, it would reduce this. Using ECP against vandalism instead of full protection, any extended confirmed user would be able to carry out edit requests. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:10, 22 July 2016 (UTC) Ian.thomson: Darwinian Ape talk 05:17, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi protection deters the common "can I really do this?" vandals, but it doesn't stop the sort of sockpuppeting vandals (those are not exclusive categories) you find at WP:LTA or during organized attacks (which do occur). This is why WP:FULLPROTECT does include vandalism (first, even). But with ECP for vandalism, then full protection would only be for content disputes (and the few other instances like generic image names). And please don't put words into my mouth, I said nothing about using ECP for content disputes. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:54, 23 July 2016 (UTC) I didn't mean you specifically would use it as such, It was a general statement, and I apologize if that was not clear. You can't though, guarantee that the admins will not use it for content disputes, even if unintentionally, being lulled by the experienced editors. Darwinian Ape talk 22:44, 23 July 2016 (UTC) Hence the requirement that use of ECP needs community review upon activation. Blackmane (talk) 04:52, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Appeal to closer: delayed implementation and notification [ edit ]

Does extended confirmed protection work? A case study [ edit ]

On July 1, a discussion at ANI was closed with consensus to deploy 30/500 in response to the sockpuppetry of Никита-Родин-2002. Now that it's been "in action" for two weeks, we can start to take a look at whether it appears to be working.

In response to the initial use of this protection level, Talk:The Who discography shows various IPs used by Nikita requesting the addition of false information to the article (which is his typical MO). All of them have been declined, preventing active disruption to the article. Further, you can see him asking when the 30/500 protection will expire, which suggests he doesn't feel himself capable of vandalizing the article until it's gone. Having dealt with this sockmaster quite a bit before, I can never recall him making edit requests or requesting information about the expiry time on semi-protected articles; he just used sleeper accounts to get around the semi-protection without comment.

Nikita attempted to make a sleeper account to get around extended confirmed protection ( ). His usual preferred method of getting around semi is to make 10 edits to his user page and then jump into vandalizing without warning, so that his sleeper isn't found before he can get to the semi-protected articles. Here, he made 115 edits to his userpage (which have now been deleted), apparently got bored, and made a single vandalizing edit to an unprotected page ([1]) which got him blocked. No similar account has been found since then. I've been monitoring new user pages to check for any that have an unusual number of edits, and nothing has popped up.

Multiple CU checks have been run on Nikita since 30/500 was deployed. None of them have uncovered accounts that appear to be successfully making their way toward extended confirmed status.

All of this seems to indicate that 30/500 is capable of working against sockpuppetry. Since this is the first time (to my knowledge) the community has authorized 30/500 outside of arbitration enforcement, this might be a useful case study to inform the positions of editors on how we should use 30/500 going forward. ~ Rob 13 Talk 18:32, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Why would you consider that as a case study when we have the patient zero, the infamous Gamergate controversy article. Let's just look at the first sentence of the lede:

The Gamergate controversy concerns issues of sexism and progressivism in video game culture, stemming from a harassment campaign conducted primarily through the use of the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate. Gamergate is used as a blanket term for the controversy, the harassment campaign and actions of those participating in it, and the loosely organized movement that emerged from the hashtag.

What a marvelous sentence! So many buzz words, you have to read it several times to even make sense of it... And it gets no better in article body. This sanction made the Gamergate article a space owned by a handful of editors, scaring off admins and editors alike.(Latest attempt, I believe, was to the admin Wordsmith for daring to moderate) Not to mention some article regulars made several visits to the AE since the implementation of the rule. Let's be real, will it be effective in some articles where there is an insistent sock or socks who make disruptive edits? Yes. Will it be effective against POV warriors and SPA's who are willing to put in the time and reach 500/30? Nope.(even if they are sock accounts of banned users.) Will it make it easy for articles to be owned by the editors? Hell yes. Will it discourage the new editors and, with the widespread usage, further decrease the already dwindling number of new editors? Absolutely. One more thing, this was supposed to be a consensus rather than a majority rule. And I see a lot of editors casting votes, but not a lot of arguments for the pros and cons of this protection. I really wish Wikipedia was a place where its policies were actually followed... Darwinian Ape talk 04:54, 19 July 2016 (UTC) In the context of how ECP is being looked at in this RFC, Nikita is patient zero. They were the first one against which ECP was deployed per community consensus rather than by Arbcom. ECP on Gamergate is under Arbcom jurisdiction so should be considered in a separate context. You ask: Will it be effective against POV warriors and SPA's who are willing to put in the time and reach 500/30? It may not stop them, but it will certainly slow them down and invariably most of these editors have such a slavish adherence to their M.O. that by the time they reach EC status, they will have let slip who they are and will be dealt with. Along the same lines, you could also argue that semi protect could have the same impact, and yet the regular limited duration deployment has not proven to be detrimental in any way except to drive off the disruptive editor who has a short attention span. ECP is to drive off the somewhat more determined, but no less disruptive/destructive editor. Blackmane (talk) 05:56, 19 July 2016 (UTC) I also want to point out that I'm not arguing with you because I think you're wrong. In fact, I think you raise excellent points and worthy of debate. Blackmane (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2016 (UTC) Thank you, I raise these issues because I see this protection to be detrimental to Wikipedia, especially in the long run. And of course I know everyone who comment on this RFC do so with the best intentions. Community consensus or not, this protection has been in place on Gamergate controversy article for more than a year. If we are to discuss the long term effects of this protection, that's your patient zero. And I think it's a prime example of what an ECP'ed article will look like give or take, depending on the vexatiousness of the topic. The problem with the edit-count based privileges is that the edit count has no bearing on the editor quality. The auto-confirmed protection works well, because it is not too much of a burden for good faith editors while it is an inconvenience for disruptive editors.(especially effective against vandals since vandalism is quite a blockable offense) But this one asks too much of a casual contributor in good faith. I don't deny that it can, in some instances, prevent persistent disruption. but in my opinion, the cost far outweighs the benefits. Darwinian Ape talk 07:05, 19 July 2016 (UTC) The GamerGate article is a good example. Before 30/500 was applied, semi-protection was working. In the two months leading up to the restriction, very few editors who would have failed that restriction were taking part, there was no revdel, and those editors who didn't meet 50/300 were either not being disruptive or were being managed easily by existing rules. Since it has been applied it has effectively disenfranchised any new editor from taking part in the discussion without considerable work. Given that there was no evidence provided that there was a problem that semi-protection wasn't already handling, we've managed to prevent new editors from taking part in discussion with no significant sign of reduced disruption. Looking at The Who discography, it seems that the important distinction is that the talk page is not under 30/500, only the article. That allows people to request changes even if they haven't met the restriction. In that sense it is working. However, I also note that semi was only applied in June, and there were three minor vandalism attacks since then. Although there have been no edits to the article since 30/500 was applied, we've got four edit requests that needed to be turned down. In terms of stopping disruption, 30/500 seems only mildly more effective than semi was. The long term effect may be better, though, so I guess we'll see what happens over time, as 10 days is a bit short to evaluate the result. - Bilby (talk) 08:04, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

May I also add that this "per community consensus" case study ECP's duration is set to indefinite, much like any other ECP'ed article we have.(which we all know likely to be infinite.) Gives confidence that it will be used with serious discretion and for short periods of time... Darwinian Ape talk 09:44, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

And thus, we have the RFC. For those non-Arbcom EC protected articles/pages, I expect that there will be no grandfathering of protection levels and that those pages will have protection levels reduced or readjusted to be in line with the outcomes of the RFC. Blackmane (talk) 23:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC) But the current wording states that the duration will be no different than semi or full protection, that it will be proportional to the disruption. In reality, it will most likely be used like semi protection level 2, and we know how many indefinitely semi protected articles we have. I recommended above in the discussion that the wording should be changed to state that duration should be set not like semi, but like the full protection which is almost always limited, but it did not get any traction. Darwinian Ape talk 04:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC) This is a Twinkle mistake, most likely. Currently, Twinkle is set to only allow ECP with "Arbitration enforcement" as the reason and "indefinite" as the length. Pinging NeilN, the protecting admin, who I'm almost certain would consider lowering the length to something in the realm of 3–6 months. Nikita is absurdly persistent, so the lengthy protection period is justified, but indefinite is a bit much. I doubt indefinite 30/500 was intentional here. ~ Rob 13 Talk 06:26, 20 July 2016 (UTC) Reduced to six months. This discussion should also determine if these kinds of protects fall under arbitration enforcement. I've gotten a couple responses indicating that they don't, However WP:ECP states that "The Arbitration Committee has authorized use on articles reasonably construed as belonging to the Arab-Israeli conflict and as an arbitration enforcement. In its use as an arbitration enforcement, extended confirmed protection may only be applied in response to persistent sockpuppetry or continued use of new, disruptive accounts where other methods (such as semi protection) have not controlled the disruption. This provision does not apply to a page or topic area which has been placed under 30/500 protection by the Arbitration Committee." I've been taking this to mean that 30/500 is implicitly an arb enforcement tool. --Neil N talk to me 07:59, 20 July 2016 (UTC) Opabinia regalis: Rob 13 Talk 13:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC) BU Rob13 and NeilN Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC) I highlight this case study because I see the value of 30/500 being combating sockpuppetry. This is the first time it has been deployed for that specific purpose, bar none. In a sense, 30/500 is being used currently in the area it is least effective – contentious topic areas where civil POV pushers have not been adequately dealt with by the community or ArbCom. 30/500 will never fix issues in those topic areas (although they may lessen them). Note also that I'm supporting Option B, not Option C, as I can't think of any appropriate use outside of sockpuppetry. If Option C passes, I'll be scrutinizing such applications of 30/500 very closely. ~ Rob 13 Talk 06:26, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It was brought up by Bilby (is that how you ping? I'll consider that a ping because I have no clue how to wiki) but it's a great point that it deserves to be mentioned again. The talk page is NOT under 20/500, only the article. If edits can be requested and discussion is encouraged to new users who don't fit 30/500 they can do so. Sethyre (talk) 19:09, 20 July 2016 (UTC) Your ping will work, as does this: Sethyre: Talk:Gamergate controversy is an absolute disgrace, but that's not under the community's control.) However, while this reassures me slightly, I still don't think it's a very nice compromise. If a newbie comes across an ECP-protected article and wants to edit it, all they'll see is that the system won't let them make a normal edit, and they'll give up in frustration. Now, 30/500 locks out quite a lot of people who I wouldn't call 'newbies', and who I imagine are quite competent in making a protected edit request, but a lot of good faith newbies will simply not know how to make an edit request, or have the patience to make one, so even if there are technically ways for anyone to get their constructive edit onto a protected page, what any form of protection (even semi) does in reality is lock out most people who fail the criteria completely. Bilorv (talk) (c)(e) Why are the talk pages being placed under the 30/500 restriction. That to me seems quite foolish. It prevents discussion on the article for many editors absolutely. If the article needs protection to prevent vandalism, POV pushing or what have you then that is fine. But to lock editors out of the discussions on the article's talk page as well, that's too much. I can hardly think of any reason to ever do so. Mr rnddude (talk) 09:56, 21 July 2016 (UTC) Mr rnddude there are currently six pages this is applied to, all claiming to be protected under the authority of arbcom sanctions. You may contact the protecting administrator to point out the specific authority for any one you are concerned with. — xaosflux Talk 11:24, 21 July 2016 (UTC) Xaosflux I would be concerned with all of them. The 30/500 sanction on talk pages makes it difficult for many (possibly most) editors to actually contribute to those pages in any meaningful way. Like I said, 30/500 on the article page I can understand. But, for the talk page what does this achieve (other than to obstruct improvement)? In some circumstances I can understand temporarily putting this protection in place, but, all six of these currently have no expiry date set (in other words are indefinitely protected). I also find it interesting that all six of these 30/500 protections were set within two weeks of the first (6th to 18th April 2016). Mr rnddude (talk) 11:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC) They all refer to a very broad arbcom remedy that is not just for articles but "any page", so it is really beyond the "community use" that is being discussed in this RfC. Please note, editors may request edits to such pages here:Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_edits_to_a_protected_page for these pages - which is where the "submit an edit request" will land if clicked. — xaosflux Talk 11:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC) Huh, sorry, I had been entirely unaware that this existed. I don't need to use it (am extended confirmed). It's not exactly the most user friendly system but at least it exists. Mr rnddude (talk) 11:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC) The difficulty is that allows people to suggest changes, but generally those are turned down quickly. To be involved in the discussion about the direction of the article you need access to the talk page. We're going to see a lot of cases of 30/500 being applied to talk pages, which is something I tend to strongly disagree with. - Bilby (talk) 01:39, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Observation [ edit ]

For the hell of it I want to point out that as an admin I have no interest whatsoever in using a new level of protection, so this is going to go right along side pending changes and super-protect as a new tool I neither wanted nor plan to use. Keep that in mind: you can role it out all you want, but if I won't use it then it is essentially no more effective towards improve the encyclopedia as new coke was for improving Coca-Cola's profit. TomStar81 (Talk) 10:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

But if other admins use it, what you decide to do isn't relevant. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:25, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

And if option C goes through, I don't plan on ever using full protection for vandalism. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:14, 22 July 2016 (UTC) If option C passes (which is looks like it's on track to), there really needs to be some guidance for admins that ECP should only be used in cases where the page would've been fully protected if ECP didn't exist, and for a duration equivalent to how long the page would've had full protection. Otherwise, despite the best intentions of admins like you, I can see it greatly increasing the number of pages that a majority of Wikipedia editors are unable to edit. --Ahecht ( TALK

PAGE ) 15:22, 5 August 2016 (UTC) Agreed. Mlpearc ( open channel ) I have to disagree. We also have to consider the class of pages where we previously wouldn't have used full protection but wouldn't have been able to control the disruption either. This is mostly true with sockpuppetry. It's obviously not customary to fully protect articles for long periods of time when combating long-term sneaky sockpuppetry, but it's also not ideal to leave them unprotected. Long-term blue locks can be a solution when all else fails. I fail to think of any situation usually requiring full protection where 30/500 would be appropriate. ~ Rob 13 Talk 17:04, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

This is a silly argument; if you choose to use a protection level sub-optimally, that's your choice, but that doesn't mean it's ineffective for improving the encyclopedia. That's like throwing away a bar of gold and using that as your proof that gold isn't worth anything. ~ Rob 13 Talk 19:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

19:27, 22 July 2016 (UTC) I join TomStar in noting that I will never use this level of protection. ArbCom instituted this new "extended confirmed" usergroup by fiat. Seeing that unlimited admin use will now become official policy, new users will be increasingly shut out as it is applied in a liberal, over-the-counter manner to any vandalized page. Our current editor retention is dismal, and the statistics show it, but changes continue to be passed which simply make the environment even more stratified and hostile than it is already. Biblio (talk) WikiProject Reforming Wikipedia. 21:24, 25 July 2016 (UTC) On a point of fact, false. ArbCom applied the 30/500 restriction to the ARBPIA zone. It was a community decision to implement this using a usergroup and protection le